Filter Insert Question

[Mammabe1]

Hello,

From what I have read so far - LFS do not have a very good reputation.... keeping this in mind... I was at the LFS to buy inserts for my mini-aqua clear and what she told me was a surprise to me so I want to run it by you all and tell me your opinion.

For the aqua clear, I was buying the sponge, the carbon (black rocks) and the ammonia remover (grey/white rocks). She then told me that I don't need to put both the carbon and ammonia remover in because they do the same job. I have always put the 3 pieces in then I was wondering..... was I doing that all along for nothing?

Anyway, what do you think? I don't want to take her advice unless you all agree with that.

Let me know!

Thanks,

Mammabe

 

[wolfsmum]

Im fairly new to all of this but as far as I am aware, the carbon is used to keep the water clear and the other pale media is what is used to help grow the helpful bacteria that do indeed brak down the ammonia. I use both in my filter as well as a pad. I only remove the carbon if I need to mediacte the tank.
The carbon should be changed regularly whereas the other media is left in place.

Hope thats all correct!

 

[Mammabe1]

Im fairly new to all of this but as far as I am aware, the carbon is used to keep the water clear and the other pale media is what is used to help grow the helpful bacteria that do indeed brak down the ammonia. I use both in my filter as well as a pad. I only remove the carbon if I need to mediacte the tank.
The carbon should be changed regularly whereas the other media is left in place.

Hope thats all correct!

H, Thanks for your feedback! It sounds good anyway - from what you said... we will just see if anyone else has any comments about it....
I think I will continue to use all 3 as I always have... unless someone advises against it or agrees with what the LFS said.

 

[BigbruiserAl]

Carcon should only be used when you have treated the tank for meds or to get rid of smells or tannis, other then that you are poring money down the loo buying caron pads. I always take carbon out and replace it with another sponge to house more bacteria. Carbon pad have been said once full to leech back into a tank

 

[Hoppo]

I also have an Aquaclear and I'm am sure if you read the box that the Carbon and the Ammonia remover comes in, it shows a diagram of the different levels and I'm pretty sure they both go in the same middle level. I have mine set up with the sponge on the bottom, the carbon in the middle and the ceramics on top, how Aquaclear suggests.

I only used an Ammonia remover when I had a horrible spike a month ago and I used it for 2 weeks til the my ammonia lvls were normal again and I threw it away replaced it with a new Carbon pack.

 

[Geoff-]

Carbon will suck a lot of trace elements out of the water that are beneficial, so only use it if you are medicating the tank. It's not essential to fishkeeping by any means when your tank is healthy, as Big says above replace it with a second filter pad to increase your filtering and biological bacteria level.

Ammonia remover should only be used in an emergency if you have a spike, a properly maintained tank should never experience this. The fish tank manufacturer and LFS may recommend it because of new fishkeepers, because if you don't know what you're doing then ammonia remover may remove toxins that would otherwise kill your fish - therefore "they are working" - in a cycled tank they are useless and just pouring money down the drain.

 

[Miles_hot]

Can you replace the carbon with more bio media? That way you will have a more robust filter and if you need to use the carbon to remove meds etc you could just keep the bio one ticking over by hanging it in the tank....

 

[CrazyAirborne]

as stated above, you dont need carbon unless removing meds from the water, and u should never need the ammonia ones, as they can actually starve the good bacteria, by stealing all the ammonia, then once they are "full" they can leach some of that ammonia back out, so not at all needed, and can do more harm than good, imo. just use normal sponges and biomedia

 

[Caprichoso]

In my AquaClear I have from the top, Bio rings, sponge, sponge. Nothing else. Carbon is useless unless wanting to remove meds or tannins from the water. Ammonia insert is useless because it provides you with a false sense of security. Ammonia gets removed by doing water changes. Both of those inserts can put bad stuff they absorbed, back in the water if they are left in too long. Best to just stay away from them both IMO. By adding an extra sponge and some bio rings, you are increasing the amount of biological filter. Give everything a rinse when it looks dirty with tank water and you're good to go. They don't ever need to be replaced unless falling apart as well.

Good luck!

 

[TwoTankAmin]

My goodness there is lot of outfight wrong information in this thread.

Carcon should only be used when you have treated the tank for meds or to get rid of smells or tannis, other then that you are poring money down the loo buying caron pads

Carbon can always be used. I can do not harm. it is not absilutely necessary in most tanks.

Carbon pad have been said once full to leech back into a tank

Again totally untrue carbon will not release nasties into the tank.

Carbon will suck a lot of trace elements out of the water that are beneficial,

Also not true.

Ammonia gets removed by doing water changes.

Nope- plants and/or bacteria remove the ammonia in a tank.

Carbon is considered chemical filtration. The effectiveness of activated carbon is based on a three-step process. The first is adsorption. Static forces will attract particles adsorbing them onto the surface of the carbon. Bacteria that settle on the carbon surface will further consume the waste. Another process is the diffusion of gases. Absorbed into the carbon the gases are detoxified (i.e. Ozone O3 into oxygen O2). The third process is called chemosorption, where particles are irreversibly bound to the carbon.

Activated carbon removes organic pollutants, some of which discolor the water with a yellowish tint, organic acids, proteins, hormones, antibiotic compounds, and organic compounds as well as a variety of chemicals, medications, metals, and minerals.

Inorganic substances removed are, chlorine, chloramine, colors and odor causing substances such as phenols.

Once the activated carbon has been used up the re-release of the adsorbed substances back into the aquarium is minimal.

Activated carbon will not remove trace elements and is safe to use in reef systems. The uptake of substances like iron, manganese, molybdenum, cadmium, zinc, and carbon dioxide are extremely limited and is insignificant if used only occasionally.

Carbon in planted aquariums should be limited, because many fertilizers contain minerals in cheleated form. These cheleates will be adsorbed by the carbon as organics.

From Activated Carbon in the Aquarium

 

[Caprichoso]

Yes, carbon will leach back into the tank. I just learned this in my water filtration segment in my nutrition course. If ammonia isn't removed by doing water changes, then why do we recommend doing them when someone has an ammonia spike in the tank and the fish are dying? Yes, it is ALSO removed by plants and bacteria.

 

[TwoTankAmin]

if by writing the following sentence

Quote: Basically the carbon will remove ammonia from the dirty water change before the water change, but it will only store it and release it into the clean water afterward.

You mean carbon somehow adsorbs ammonia and then releases it I am afraid you are mistaken. Carbon does not remove ammonia from water. Aged carbon can become a medium that the nitrifying bacteria grow on but changing the water will not cause the bacteria to release ammonia.

Source: Dr. T. Hovanec Posted: Sun Oct 31, 2010 10:47 pm on the cichlid-forum.com

The minimal release that occurs when activated carbon has reached its max capacity is also accompanied by the carbon then adsorbing something else in the very minmal space opened up for that. The net effect is basically 0.

If ammonia isn't removed by doing water changes, then why do we recommend doing them when someone has an ammonia spike in the tank and the fish are dying?

In a cycled tank there is no ammonia because it is consumed by the bacteria. In a cycled planted tank some to most of the ammonia is consumed by the plants and anything they can't handle there will be bacteria to take care of. It is only in the case of an uncycled tank, an emergency caused by bad aquarium practice or the death of the established baceteria which should cause ammonia to show up and necessitate an emergency water change.

Further, there is no need for ammonia remover media in a cycled tank. In a cycled tank water changes are done to remove nitrate and DOCs and to prevent "acid: from building up and dropping the pH.

But lets look at the same things I have stated here on another site- thetropicaltank.co.uk

Using Activated Carbon in the Aquarium
Activated carbon is used quite commonly as part of the filtration system in aquaria, but there are many myths and misunderstandings about its use, and what it can or cannot do. Some of these myths are repeated so often that many believe them to be absolute truths!

Carbon will remove a range of substances from water, including:

• Dissolved organic molecules - this is the primary reason to use carbon in most aquaria.
• Medications, antibiotics and dyes - this can be useful for removing excess/residual medication, but also means that carbon should be removed when using medications, to avoid removal of the medication during the treatment phase.
• Chlorine and chloramine (carbon blocks are often included in RO prefilters to avoid damage to the RO membrane by chlorine and chloramine).
• Certain heavy metals - the amounts will depend on factors such as the solubility of the metal at the pH of the specific aquarium.

It is important to note that there are certain substances that carbon will not adsorb any significant amount of, which include:

• Ammonia, nitrite and nitrate.
• Phosphate
• Inorganic salts (like sodium chloride)

Substances like nitrate and phosphate can be adsorbed by other specialised resins, and some commercial products are a blend of carbon and more specialised resins.

Note the use of the word "adsorb" with a "d". This refers to substances being bound onto the solid surface of the media, rather than being absorbed internally (in the way that a sponge absorbs water).

Apart from the substances that carbon will or won't adsorb, there are a number of other misunderstandings about carbon.

It is often said that exhausted carbon will leach adsorbed substances back into the aquarium. This is unlikely under 'normal' conditions. Specific chemical conditions are required to remove many substances once adsorbed, such as extreme pH values outside the normal range for aquaria. All that will happen if you leave carbon too long without changing it, is that it will no longer be effective for its intended purpose, and will instead become coated in a biofilm and become part of the bio-filtration. However, if this is then removed, part of the biofiltration capacity has been lost, so it makes sense to either change carbon regularly so that it continues to perform its intended task, or if you choose not to use it, replace it with extra biomedia.

Another concern about using carbon is the possibility of removing desirable 'trace elements' from the aquarium water. Although this is possible, in practice the desirable substances concerned (such as iron in a planted aquarium) are unlikely to be removed to any significant degree under normal aquarium conditions.

(The red is mine.)

 

[Caprichoso]

Obviously you believe that carbon cannot leach back anything harmful and that is fine. I don't agree and I have my own sources and have done my own research to convince myself. I didn't disagree with you that in a cycled tank there is "supposed" to be 0 ammonia. Like, obviously. I also said that ammonia remover is pointless. When I made the comment about doing water changes to remove ammonia, that is a true statement so I'm not sure why you rebutted it. Yes, I know that water changes are to prevent old tank syndrome from happening but you flat out said "nope" when I said that ammonia can be removed by doing water changes. Of coarse it can be removed by doing water changes! Just because it also gets removed naturally by plants and bacteria doesn't make my statement wrong. If you're going to disagree with someone then you should make sure there is something valid to disagree about. Not including the carbon leaching, that is where the difference of opinion is clear.

 

[ian]

Carbon can't leach back into the tank, activated carbon attracts negatively charged chemical particles with its own positive charge. These then get absorbed into the porous structures. Again this is another fish keeping myth. I once believed that it could leach back as well until presented with the evedence. De-adsroption can only be done by switching from one pH extreme (very acidic or basic) to the other pH extreme. When we say extreme, we mean very extreme. To the extreme that can't be done in a aquarium. If you leave activated carbon too long without changing it, it will no longer be effective as a adsorbent and will instead become part of the biological filtration.


Also, i use Carbon and Zeolite in my planted tanks. Zeolite is a great product IME.

 

[TwoTankAmin]

It amazes me how people can say something in print and then misquote themselves in the same thread.

I said that ammonia can be removed by doing water changes.

No you did not say that, scroll up to your ppst and read where you said these exact words:

Ammonia gets removed by doing water changes.

There is a big difference between saying ammonia can be removed and ammonia is removed. The latter implies water changes remove ammonia from tank not bacteria or plants.

And I love to be educated. I quoted two reputable sources that say carbon basically does not release anything dangerous back into the aquarium. And here is one, Dr. T Hovanec again

DE-ADSORPTION De-adsorption is another phenomenon that is over-stated in the rumor mills about activated carbon. Again, it is an incomplete statement that is commonly used to described the process. It goes, in one fashion or another, as: don't use carbon because once its adsorption sites are full it will release, or de-adsorb, all the stuff it has adsorbed releasing a large amount of pollutants back into the aquarium. The implication in this sentence that activated carbon works something like a capacitor such that once at its maximum adsorption capacity, it instantaneously discharges all the bad things it has adsorbed is wrong. Carbon does de-adsorb, in fact, that ability is exploited for recycling precious metals. However, in a controlled industrial process, the quick release of the target substance is accomplished by switching the pH of the water. The basic process is to capture the target substance at one pH extreme (very acidic or basic) and then reclaim the substance by switching to the other pH extreme. As stated earlier in this article, these pH values are outside the normal range of aquaria. De-adsorption is not a process to be worried about.

From Revisiting Activated Carbon


You claim to have done research that proves this wrong. So please educate me and the other members of this forum by providing quotes and references which show how dangerous it can be to use activated carbon in a tank and how long you have to leave it there for it to start harming the tank and its inhabitants.

In over 11 years of keeping fish and reading and talking to many experts, I have never seen a single source that claims activated carbon used in aquariums will release back nasty things into the water that is harmful to the tank inhabitants. In fact the biggest risk I have seen mentioned is that failing to change out carbon regularly results in it becoming a bio media and, that once this happened, changing it removes some of the beneficial bacteria that has colonized it which may cause cycling related issues.