Female Endlers?

[Lynden]

Even with all you guys trying to tell me that there is female endlers, im not quite convinced. I have some powerful evidence that helps my theory, which states that there are no pure endler females.

1. All male endlers look nearly identical. They have the same colour, size, ect.

2. Male endlers do not resemble female endlers.

3. The so-called female endlers do not differ from reticulata females.

4. Animals lose things they can live without. For instance, the blind cave tetra lost its eyes and pigement for some more useful senses in the dark. The amazon molly, Poecilia maculata, species does not have males. The females are impregnated by their own genetic material. Therefore, if endlers can so easily hybridize with guppies and their sperm is so dominant, they dont need females of their species to make continuity possible.

5. Even in the wild, guppies are often mixed with endlers. So they can hybridize easily.


Please tell me how wrong i am or anything else that need to be said.

 

[Annastasia]

I'm no Endler expert, so maybe one of them can come along and answer your question. But there are a few things I would like to point out.

1. All male endlers look nearly identical. They have the same colour, size, ect.

So would all male Guppies, had they not been inbred to get fancy colors and fin types. When you look in Feeder Guppy tanks, the males all look basically the same. That's because they are very close to their wild form.

2. Male endlers do not resemble female endlers.

Well...not all species do. Take some Cichlids, for example. You have the bright, flashy, colorful males...and the brown females. Just the way it is, in nature. Wild Guppy females don't look much like the males either.

3. The so-called female endlers do not differ from reticulata females.

Maybe you haven't seen a real "so called" Female Endler then. Perhaps you saw one that was already hyrbidized with Guppies. My pure ones, as far as I know (Got them from a breeder) look very different from my female Guppies. Much smaller, slightly longer and thinner.

As I said, I'm no expert. Just pointing out a few things.

 

[Lynden]

Wild female guppies do resemble the male wilders. And male wild guppies are not the same as eachother as far as finnage, colour, and size go. And yes, many species do not resemble the opposite sex. However, they still look vaguely similar and they do not differ too much between them. "Distinguishable traits" is what im reffering to. My guppy females do look like the males, and they differ between them, like one has a black tail, the other has a purple tail, ect.

You have made some good points indeed. But so have I.
Maybe you do have pure females, the pure unstained kind. Maybe i just have not seen any at all

 

[Annastasia]

Basically, Wild males do. Endlers vary a lot too, there is just one common color you see more often. Wild Guppies vary as much as Wild Endlers. Wild female Guppies resemble Wild Males as much as Female Endlers resemble Male Endlers. The two species are very much alike, there is even some debate as to whether they ARE a seperate species or not.


Anyway, I'm not going to argue. Everyone is entitled to their opinions, my opinion is there are female Endlers, your's is there are not. We just differ.

*Sits back and waits for experienced Endler person to reply*

 

[shiftingsands]

Hi, I have not been keeping endlers very long so am no authority but here's my tuppenceworth:
Most people agree that endler ancestors are wild guppies. Those originally collected have been selectively bred for several years, being kept away from guppy genes and some collections are now 100% "pure" Endler.

Although these are now domesticated they still keep their original gender characteristics: Males needed their bright colours to be seen in murky waters by the females, who have no need to be seen so have kept thei "non-colour" of silver, very much like guppies from whom they are descended. Pure female guppies and pure female Endlers are very different. Endler F's are silver/pale gold colour, quite slender and much bigger than the males ( about 3 or 4 times the size). Female guppies are darker in the body colour and have dark fins, the ones I have are only about double the size of the males (if that).

1) Quote: All male endlers look nearly identical. They have the same colour, size, ect.
They have the same size, but different strains ie Black bar, Peacock etc etc do have different patterns of colour. Many of the colours are the same but they are distributed differently on the fish, giving rise to the different colour"strains". So they are not all the same. Some also have snake patterns.

2) Quote: Male endlers do not resemble female endlers.
Correct - you would never know they are the same species by looking at them.

3. Quote: The so-called female endlers do not differ from reticulata females.
They do - they are a different colour and body shape

4. Quote : Animals lose things they can live without. For instance, the blind cave tetra lost its eyes and pigement for some more useful senses in the dark. The amazon molly, Poecilia maculata, species does not have males. The females are impregnated by their own genetic material. Therefore, if endlers can so easily hybridize with guppies and their sperm is so dominant, they dont need females of their species to make continuity possible

Endlers taken from the wild do not readily mate with guppies, if they have come from pools that contain no guppies, though if guppy males are the only ones available, then they will. The closer guppy is in an individual females Endler ancestry, the more readily they will mate with them. i.e. in the UK there are few pure endlers ( if there are lots I have yet to track them down) and most that are advertised, say on ebay uk, are hybrids, ( have been crossed with guppies in the recent past) although the sellers either think they are pure breds or are trying to dupe people into believing they are. I have only seen 2 sellers on ebay that do have pure ELBs. These hybrids WILL readily mate with guppy males.

I dont understand the reasoning of the last comment-
"Therefore, if endlers can so easily hybridize with guppies and their sperm is so dominant, they dont need females of their species to make continuity possible"

Thats like saying" you can cross a male Labrador with a collie female and still get a pure bred Labrador puppy, beacuse the father is a pure breed, fraid that doesn't make sense to me. Every species needs to cross with their own species to keep it pure. (This is assuming that you can get your head round the fact that eEndler people feel they are sub species, not the same species). If Endler males crossed with guppy females the result would be what endler people call a hybrid. The male colours in a hybrid ( Endlerxguppy)are muted and pale and the females much shorter and deeper bodied and more of a beige/gold colour than the correct colour which is more silvery. Once a pure Endler is crossed with a guppy, it doesn't matter how many times you cross the offspring back to pure Endler, they will always look hybrid. Once you have seen both hybrid and pure side by side you will recognise the difference immediately.

The problem is that Endlers are still classed as Poecilia recticulata and many livebearer authorities refer to them as guppies. Eventually I hope that Endlers will be classed as a sub species, but until then I feel they should be refered to as Poecilia Reticulata Endler.

Anyone who is interested in Endlers should visit www.endlersr.us.com where the foremost authorties on Endlers can be found. If you keep Endlers then you MUSTt visit it LOL. There is also a sister UK site, link for it is on the site above.

OK, I have my tin hat and flack jacket on and am running for the shelter. ..... let the battle commence.


Tanks:
Hybrid Endlers - my first Endlers - til I discovered the pure ones
Black Bar Elbs
Black Bar ELBs from different stock
Centre Peacock ELBs
Orange Chest ELBs
Silver Chest ELBs
Comm tank : Guppies, Platies, neons, glowlight, corys, plecs,

 

[dwarfgourami]

Ha, I feel we are getting to the heart of the matter!

If, as shiftingsands suggests, some endlers are taken from pools that contain no guppies, then it follows that there ARE pools with endlers only. Unless these are temporarily forming pools and the fish come from larger communities elsewhere, then they MUST have endler females to keep them going. Ergo, if this is so, then there must BE female endlers.

 

[cybergoldfish]

Even with all you guys trying to tell me that there is female endlers, im not quite convinced. I have some powerful evidence that helps my theory, which states that there are no pure endler females.

1. All male endlers look nearly identical. They have the same colour, size, ect.

Uhm.. http/members.cox.net/newcomb1/elb_collage.jpg
Admittadly, they look similar, but all fish of the same species look similar. You probably would look at your neighbour funny if he appeared to be a large cat, for instance.

More specifically, Endlers are from a lake. Just one. The ones that John Endler collected are from Venezuela, in a small cut off lake which presumably had Endlers as its main occupant. In such a closed system, there is little variation in the blood lines due to inbreeding. I'm not totally up to date with it, and I've heard people say that they've collected 'Endlers' in Africa for example, but I've seen no proof that they're the same species as Endlers, and are probably just wild guppies (which do quite resemble Endlers).

2. Male endlers do not resemble female endlers.

There are plenty of species of animal which look different. Many male birds, for example the peacock, have much brighter feathers than the females in order to attract females.

3. The so-called female endlers do not differ from reticulata females.

They just do. Really. Do you have Endler females? Because they are much smaller, in my experience develop differently, and are differently coloured.

4. Animals lose things they can live without. For instance, the blind cave tetra lost its eyes and pigement for some more useful senses in the dark. The amazon molly, Poecilia maculata, species does not have males. The females are impregnated by their own genetic material. Therefore, if endlers can so easily hybridize with guppies and their sperm is so dominant, they dont need females of their species to make continuity possible.

To be honest I see that as an attempt to destroy the pure bloodlines. You blasphemer. Yes, Endlers CAN hybridise with guppies. However they do NOT produce the same species. Exactly like when asian scientists bred several types of hybridisable cichlids together to form the Flowerhorn.

5. Even in the wild, guppies are often mixed with endlers. So they can hybridize easily.

Sorry but that's just not a reason which supports your theory that there are no female Endlers.

Anyway, if you really do believe that there aren't any female Endlers, then why should there be any male Endlers? Why can't they just be a colour variant of wild guppies? In the end we'll have to wait until they've finished the taxonomy of Endlers until we know.

 

[Lynden]

Okay, i found some pictures of female endlers, they look very similiar to female guppies. I do notice a few differences. I do have female endlers, they do not look any different from the other guppies. However there is a 99% chance that they are hybrids. But my endler male hybrids all look very similiar. Why wouldnt they be affected by the hybridization? I have a firm understanding of genetics, something here just doesnt fit. I have studied many, many, many animals, and have gathered much information on genetics, and what happens when certain conditions are met, as well as how evolution works. It is fully possible for an animal to lose traits they dont need in order to maximize their continuity. I know all this stuff you have presented me with, except the fact that they are not always mixed with guppies.

I think that endlers may very well be a colour variant. This only makes my theory more plausible, since the variant may only be a male one. Also, ive never heard of guppies in africa. Poecilia species are native to central and south america.

Also, why on earth would i want to destroy a pure bloodline? Its like calling me an animal torturer who attempts to annihilate a pure species. This is something I do with my guppies, in order to make new bloodlines, and get away from inbreeding. You are calling me a blasphemist, too. What do you have to say to support that strange statement? If an animal can do something more easily than it can another, it will adapt to do the thing thats easier. It helps the animal continue on. So if females are not needed, they will lose them and go with all males.

If endlers are simply a guppy variant, an endler and a guppy will produce Poecilia reticulata offspring.
My theories are backed up with alot of research, and cannot be challenged without doing the same research as i have. I admit i am fairly close to believing that there are female endlers, as my evedince is begging to be overpowered. What we really need here though is to prove my facts absolutly wrong instead of simply differing a little. (come on, I know you can do it! )

-Lynden

 

[pica_nuttalli]

My theories are backed up with alot of research, and cannot be challenged without doing the same research as i have. I admit i am fairly close to believing that there are female endlers, as my evedince is begging to be overpowered.

ok, just to inquire, exactly what have you looked at in your "research"? and cross-breeding guppies with potentially hybridized endlers in your home aquarium doesn't count (because you cannot be 100% sure that they are purebred endlers.)

 

[Lynden]

Well, i was not the most "socially mature" person in grade eight. I did a massive amount of reading that year, and about 95% of it was on fish.( I also did a final essay on them )

I have stated that I was 99% sure that my endlers were hybridized, mostly because they were actually born from a guppie mother. So, you are right, i cannot be sure they are not hybridized.

 

[pica_nuttalli]

thus you have no experience with actual pure-line endlers. have you read any of Dr. Endler's research?

 

[Lynden]

Yeah, here and there. Not for awhile though. Maybe he can give me the answer that I ask you guys for!

(Please, i am waiting patiently for somebody to prove me wrong! I posted this thread to learn that I am wrong! TFF is a place for learning, after all. Its a bit of a test really )

 

[ananda1]

The amazon molly, Poecilia maculata, species does not have males. The females are impregnated by their own genetic material. Therefore, if endlers can so easily hybridize with guppies and their sperm is so dominant, they dont need females of their species to make continuity possible.
...
Please tell me how wrong i am or anything else that need to be said.

The Amazon molly is Poecilia formosa according to Fishbase.org.
(Poecilia maculata is an old name for Xiphophorus maculatus, aka the Southern platyfish.)

Description of life cycle and mating behavior of P. formosa: "Reproduces gynogenetically (Refs. 8601, 8602, 8605, 5723). The female mates with a male P. latipinna or male P. sphenops, but once the sperm has penetrated the egg membrane, it takes no further part in the development of the embryo. Eggs develop following stimulation by sperm from either parental species (Ref. 5723). Viviparous (Ref. 8601), but there is no nutritional contribution by the mother during embryonic development to compensate for the depletion of stored reserves in the egg as embryos develop (Ref. 8606)."

So, while the Amazon mollies aren't exactly impregnated by their own genetic material, the genetic material of the male in question is not used for anything.

 

[shiftingsands]

Lynden

Quote: Okay, i found some pictures of female endlers, they look very similiar to female guppies.
______________________________________________________________________________________

In what way do you feel they are similar? The pure endler females I have are not at all similar to my guppy females. They are a different size, colour and shape, so If your Endler females look the same as your female guppies - then they are not Endlers, period. Can you post the pics of the female Endlers that you found.
The variant you talk about: Quote: "I think that endlers may very well be a colour variant. This only makes my theory more plausible, since the variant may only be a male one." The male shows the colour, but the female carries the colour strain in her genes too, she just does not display it. She imparts her genetic package into the fry. I find it hard to understand that with your knowledge of genetics that you think that inherited traits can only be carried by males?
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Quote: I have some powerful evidence that helps my theory, which states that there are no pure endler females.
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Have you looked here: www.endlersrus.com and www.swampriveraquatics.com, you will find lots to read about this subject from the experts - of which I am not one LOL.

Why do you want to be proved wrong?? I dont think anyone is argueing that endler crossed with guppy will produce Poecilia reticulata offspring, are they? I accept that at the moment, Endlers are classified as Poecilia Reticulata. But feel they are different enough in size, shape, colouration, so their phenotype is different from a guppy, but their genotype is in all probability very similar, perhaps as high as 99.9%. Humans are only a very short step as a percentage of similar DNA, away from the great apes, and I think we would all agree that humans are a different species.

I was visiting someone who is a foremost authority on all tropical fish in the Uk, who had several species in his fish house that are yet to be named formally There are many fish with "no name"that have been recently discovered that have either been "lumped in" with a similar species or are not even named at all yet.

It doesn't really matter to me whether Endlers are seperately classified or not - I just love fish that are said to be Endlers, I think I can usually tell the difference between what are said to be pure breds and hybrids when I see a fish in the flesh and have some lovely ones of my own . I will only breed them with other Endlers that I believe to be pure Endler type. Thats my decision, what you do with your fish is up to you. Lets just enjoy them - whatever their name is.

 

[cybergoldfish]

Female Endlers' give birth every 28 days, guppies take longer. There's a nice anti-no female Endler argument. If you are suggesting that 'survival of the fittest' would eventually weed out female Endlers in favour of female guppies, you are totally wrong. Since female Endlers breed more than female guppies, eventually the total amount of guppies in a particular environment would be far surpassed by the population of Endlers. Also, female Endlers and guppies both attempt to breed with the most colourful male they can find. In a mixed environment of male guppies and male Endlers, both female Endlers and female guppies would choose male Endlers, because their colours are brighter (a sign of a stronger bloodline). Therefore if anything, within about 10 generations all female guppies would be bred out of existance. Incase you don't understand:
Gen 1 - male (m) endler (e) breed (x) with female (f) guppy (g) = offspring which are 50/50 e/g
Gen 2 - m e x f g = offspring 75/25 e/g
Gen 3 - m e x f g = and so on. Choosing the 'purest' male Endlers all the time WILL reduce guppy bloodlines.

Therefore I don't see your hypothesis of female Endlers becoming extinct to be true at all.

What kind of education do you have in genetics? If it's a degree or something, I'd go straight to a more dedicated Endler website.