Extremely hard water

[Geo]

Hi,

I'm new to the forums, so apologies if this is in the wrong place.

I recently moved into a new house and thought I'd get back into the hobby. All seemed to be going well, I set my tank up and ordered all my kit ready for a fishless cycle (something I have not done before).

Today I received the API GH & KH liquid test kit, so went ahead and tested my tap water. The results are off the scale.

KH: 15 drops (15dkh? 267ppm?)
GH: 21 drops (21dgh? 375ppm?)

I had planned to keep tiger barbs, which I know that they can tolerate hard water, but I suspect my water is a bit extreme or them??

I don't really want to go down the RO route (on a water meter). I have read that peat and driftwood can both help reduce hardness, but I don't know if they will be effective enough.

If I can't get the hardness down, what stocking options do I have (I don't know my PH yet, so may be a difficult question). The tank is a Roma 200, so not particularly big, and I do not have the space to upgrade, so would need to suit the fish for life.

Any advice would me much appreciated.

George

 

[StevenF]

GH is a measure of how much calcium and magnesium is in the water. The only way to reduce the GH vallue is to remove them from the water. Peat and driftwood will not do that . KH is a reading of carbonates in the water. Mainly potassium carbonate, calcium carbonate, and magnesium carbonate. Again the only way to reduce the hardness is by removing them.

for every liter of pure water a RO system creates it produces between 0.5 to 1.5 Liters of brine concentrate. THe RO water is produced slowly and stored in a storage tank. When the storage tank is full a pressure controlled valve turns off the water. So assuming your tank is 200 liters and you produce 200 Liters of RO a week you will add about 300 liters to your water bill. Showers, washing machines for dishes and cloths will probably dwarf the RO component of your bill. So A RO system may not have a big impact on your water bill.

Also look on line for your water quality report. Sometimes water that hard will have elevated uranium and arsenic levels. If that is the case you shouldn't really drink your tap water. In many places laws put limits on Uranium and arsenic levels (I don't know about the UK). In the US laws do require utilities to treat the water to reduce Uranium and arsenic levels if they are present.

 

[Geo]

Thanks for the info on GH and KH. In my previous set ups I had fairly hard water, but never such that I really worried about it. I'm learning a lot now!

I was reading about API water softener pillow. There are people claiming these actually work (although I'm always skeptical of these sorts of solutions). I believe it has some effect on sodium levels, but not really sure if this would be a problem for tiger barbs. Any thoughts?

I hear what you're saying regarding RO. It does appear to be more cost effective than I had first thought, but I'm rather skint now. I looked at some of the cheaper options (like this http://amzn.eu/ezZPAta), but it seems they take hours to produce enough water for a weekly change.

Also regarding RO, I am concerned it will be hard to maintain consistency as, I assume, I would need to mix RO and tap water at each change?

Water quality in the UK is well regulated, so I don't think it's likely there are any issues. I did check and there is arsenic, but it is well below the regulatory limit. The report shows calcium carbonate at 326mg/l, which, though a little lower, I think backs up the test result somewhat (I was kinda hoping the test was wrong).

Deep down I am hoping that it will be okay to keep tiger barbs with my tap water, but also I don't want this to impact their welfare. Does anyone have a solid answer to this?

 

[Munroco]

African cichlids may be a better bet. I always fancied a tank with shell dwellers.

Julidichromis species are relatively small and some of the more beatiful Africans IMO

 

[eaglesaquarium]

Having your heart set on a specific species can be difficult when your tap conditions just don't match up well with it.

The 'good' news is that with captive bred specimens, your hardness is just a tick higher than their extreme tolerance, according to seriouslyfish.com. So, if you were to go the RO route, an 80/20 mix of tap to RO would likely get it down to where you want it.

That would mean for a 25% water change (~50L) weekly, you would need ~10L of RO. The biggest concern, of course, would be those cases where larger and/or more frequent water changes would be necessary. Then you'd have a larger amount needed (which can be bought, in a dire emergency).


Perhaps the better alternative ( though not preferable to you) would be to consider fish more suited to your water.

Liverbearers would be quite at home in that tank.
Likewise just about any of the African Rift Valley cichlids as well. A 200L would be a nice home for some Malawi cichlids... some of the most colorful fish in the freshwater trade.

 

[Geo]

I am now seriously considering the RO route. I can't afford an expensive unit, but for an 80/20 mix I think I could manage with a cheaper one. For larger changes, I am thinking I could store a couple of 25 litre water bottles. Can I assume there would be no expiration on stored water?

Also, beyond marking ratios on a bucket, is there anything I should do to ensure the water stays consistent?

I am also looking into African cichlids, but, as I have never kept cichlids before, I am a whole lot of research away this being a viable option.

 

[DrRob]

Don't panic too much, you can keep a good selection of fish in Wiltshire water, although yes, it is in the liquid rock category of hardness.

I have an RO unit, and would counsel you to go down the hard water fish route if you can, mainly because there's nothing like being able to dump a huge water change in an ailing tank without waiting for a jerry can to fill, plus they take up a lot of space. Malawi tanks are popular locally for this reason, and there are some great hard water loving fish in the hobby, rainbows, central american cichlids, most livebearers and a good random selection of others. That said, most of our local stores are keeping a lot of fish that are captive bred in local tap water with no great issue, and many of them do very well in this sort of water, despite what the original wild caught version would like, but if you can stay to the original desires of the fish then things tend to be easier.

With your Roma 200 you'd be pushed with central americans, even the firemouth sized ones, but you'd do well with shell dwellers as mentioned above, or a rainbowfish tank, they had a beautiful display running at a local Maidenhead Aquatics kept on local tapwater for a long time, plants tend to like the hard water too.

 

[StevenF]

but it seems they take hours to produce enough water for a weekly change.

Most RO systems are intended for human consumption use. In most cases a few gallons per day is all that is needed. These systems also use a pressurized storage tank to store 3 to 5 gallons f the occasional surge usage during the day. Larger systems are available that can produce all the water you need in one day.

but it seems they take hours to produce enough water for a weekly change.

I don't have the unit in the link but it would probably produce more than you need. RO water can easily stored in a sealed bottle indefinitely. So if you properly cycle an aquarium with ammonia very rarely would you need to do a daily cycling.

Generally there isn't much maintenance needed for RO systems. Yes you do occasionally need to change the filters. How easy or hard depends on the design. Some the smaller units that generate around 20 gallons per day use twist on twist off filters. These filters are easy to change and very little water is spilled. Others like the one you linked or the high flow unit it linked to use screw on and screw off filters. These filters are generally harder to replace and some water will generally spill. How often you need to change the filter will depend on how much sediment is present and the amount and type of dissolved minters. You will probably need to change the filter once per year.

There are two ways to determine when a filter change is needed. The the RO membrane gets clogged water flow through it will slow. When you have to wait for your water it maybe time to install a new filter. The other common failure occurs when a hole developed int he RO filter. This will increase the hardness of the RO water a little or a lot. You can use your GH test to periodically test your RO water. Another way to check the purity of RO water is tu use a TDS (total dissolved solids) meter. TDS meters would give you a faster reading without then need for chemical test.

I was reading about API water softener pillow.

Recently someone posted about his try with them ans results were good. I don't have any experience with them. However with your water as hard as it is, these pillows probably would not last long. These pillows use a resin designed to absorb contaminants in the water. Water softeners typically use a resin that restored with salt water. After restoring it it will remove minerals in the water but in the process might release some sodium in the water. My parents had such a system in their old house and I never did taste any salt int he water. Other resins such as DI resins will not release any thing in the water when they are in use. DI water is the purest available. Generally you don't need to go with DI water in aquariums.

 

[DrRob]

Water softeners typically use a resin that restored with salt water. Af restoring it it will remove minerals in the water but in the process might release some sodium in the water. My parents has such a system in their old housee and I never did last any salt int he water.

Aye, we have one of them, they use exchange resins to switch calcium (and to a degree magnesium) for sodium, the taste of salt will depend on how much calcium is replaced, we're in Wiltshire as well, so I suspect on similar water to the OP, but it will depend where in the county, and our softener water isn't pleasant to drink, but very nice to shower in.

 

[Zante]

Consider also Central American cichlids. They too live in hard water and are beautiful fish.