Example: High Fish Load 2.5 Year Old Tank Using Strict Ei

[plantbrain]

Well, seems all anyone cares about are photo's so here's a tank I've done for a client that's been up and running about 2.5 years now using plain old EI, high fish load and relatively slow growers. Fish health is impeccable and Cardinals, Rummy noses, Emperor tetras, 10 different rare plecos species/3 other cats, otto cats, Corys, Rose line barbs, Large Silver hatchets, Noemacilius botia, gold dojo have been gowing and eating well for some time now.

This tank had a dosing fertilizer unit on it, but the folks there dose 2x a week and feed well, I feed and dose once a week, works pretty well.

The glass has never had any algae issues, some BBA appeared initially, adding more CO2 addressed that. There are about 900 fish in here. 500 Cards and 250 Rummy noses, 50 Emperor tetras, 5 newly added Rose line barbs(look like the rummy's for now till they grow). Plain flourite substrate. I used the green geko crypts in the front because on the larger plecos knocking most other plants loose there(it';s the only things that's survived their onslaught). There are 4 A. adonis black satan plecos in here that do extremely well as well as several awesome species of pleco(4 mango, 2 vampire, 4 P leopardus, 2 S aureum, 3 peppermint, 5 S multipunctatus, 2 long fin bushy nose, 4 Gold nugget, 4 gold spot, 4 P pulcher, several others that escape me). There are 40 Cory Panda and 6 C. adlofi. 3 Large SAE's I cannot catch or kill (yet).


The wood is alder and mazanita, the rock is the grey suiko rock from China. Wet dry filter, 1 large Ehiem canister filter, 2xCO2 reactors fed directly into the return pump. One intake in an overflow, one at about gravel level.
Water change:50-70% weekly. GH: 8, KH 5.
CO2 about 8 bubbles a second.

NO3: about 25ppm before water change. PO4 about 2ppm before water change , K+ about 30ppm before water change.

now.

This tank had a dosing fertilizer unit on it, but the folks there dose 2x a week and feed well, I feed and dose once a week, works pretty well.

The glass has never had any algae issues, some BBA appeared initially, adding more CO2 addressed that. There are about 900 fish in here. 500 Cards and 250 Rummy noses, 50 Emperor tetras, 5 newly added Rose line barbs(look like the rummy's for now till they grow). Plain flourite substrate. I used the green geko crypts in the front because on the larger plecos knocking most other plants loose there(it';s the only things that's survived their onslaught). There are 4 A. adonis black satan plecos in here that do extremely well as well as several awesome species of pleco(4 mango, 2 vampire, 4 P leopardus, 2 S aureum, 3 peppermint, 5 S multipunctatus, 2 long fin bushy nose, 4 Gold nugget, 4 gold spot, 4 P pulcher, several others that escape me). There are 40 Cory Panda and 6 C. adlofi. 3 Large SAE's I cannot catch or kill (yet).


The wood is alder and mazanita, the rock is the grey suiko rock from China. Wet dry filter, 1 large Ehiem canister filter, 2xCO2 reactors fed directly into the return pump. One intake in an overflow, one at about gravel level.
Water change:50-70% weekly. GH: 8, KH 5.
CO2 about 8 bubbles a second.

NO3: about 25ppm before water change. PO4 about 2ppm before water change , K+ about 30ppm before water change.

Regards,
Tom Barr

 

[nry]

I've often wondered how a job like yours would work, aside from not being close to having your knowledgebase on the subject in my head, I wonder if (like my current job in IT) I would end up losing the interest I have in my setup at home. Another different but interesting aquarium!

 

[George Farmer]

Well well well.... EI really works!?

 

[nry]

Here-in lies a curiosity of mine: if, in an EI tank, you take out all the algae eaters (otto's, plecs, shrimp, snails etc etc) then is algae still under control? Are these livestock additions only useful during the initial phase of the tank setup? (Off topic slightly but vaguely relevant!)

 

[plantbrain]

Well well well.... EI really works!?

No, it's a lie, it's all tricky.
You cannot see the NO3 in there after all............and those are not really live fish, they are dead, just floating there(I painted them to make them look life like), that way I can take a picture without them blurring the tank........The KNO3 is really not KNO3, it's actually popcorn, dead fish love to eat popcorn.

On a more serious note, NRY:
There are only a few ottos, maybe 20? They do not do much, maybe nibble on diatoms, there's not a lot of algae for them or the SAE's, all 3 of them, fat and lazy, they eat algae wafers, not algae so there's no real algae crew in this tank to begin with.

Shrimp would be quickly eaten by those plecos and catfish.

I've run EI high light tanks without fish or snails or shrimp etc, just plants and ferts.
Growth and plant health is excellent. No algae.

The point here is that some clowns claim that EI is "bad" for algae.
There's no algae.

Then when that argument does not pass the muster.......they suggest that the levels are toxic to fish. Several folks have added 80-200ppm of NO3 will no ill effects for 3-14 days time frames: no ill effects or observational effects on fish. I manged to kill some shrimp at 160ppm + NO3.

So then........ they claim that at lower levels, say 20-30ppm of NO3, that the "long term sublethal effects are "detrimental". So what is "detrimental"? Can they quantify this parameter? After 2.5 years, shouldn't we see something "bad"? These fish have grown and have never had diseases, nor any funny behavioral issues. They eat as much food as you add which is a lot. Several breeding events have occurred, but the fry get eaten.

So then they claim it's "not possible", "something else is going on that I'm telling folks" so they get flustered and cannot explain why the evidence suggest they are wrong about EI............. but have they even bothered to test the method themselves critically? Of course not...........

This tank is after a week of not tending it, that is the way it looks before I clean it after 1 hour of lights being on.

It is what the client wants, not me.
Lots of jungle, lots of color, fish, caves.

You do consistent routine work, dose, water changes, good CO2, good food for fish, good O2/filters, good balanced fish load, keep a good amount of plant biomass, then the tank will do very well and it's very hard to destabilize the system.

The best way to destabilize is to mess with the CO2/plant biomass.
Then NO3, then K+/PO4, no water changes etc

another EI tank of mine

This tank fits in my hand and is a non CO2 tank

Regards,
Tom Barr

 

[plantbrain]

And but of course going from 1.5 gallons to 1600 gallons(not including lakes):

And if anyone thinks other wise, here's an aquascape that expressed my opinion:

Here's the tank from way back that I figured out with Steve's help that we where on to something with PO4:

Compare these to the critics who claim otherwise.
Also ask them what parameters they tested to prove under aquarium conditions that what they claim is true, show and demand evidence.

I offer that, I detail the methods and have for over a decade now.

Pretty obvious that it works very well indeed.
So why is it better to add leaner dosing again?
Why should aquarist obsess with that so much?
Why is that leaner is better approach actually "better", what do I get for that micromanagment?
Why does algae appear? Oddly, they have few answers and even fewer test they have done and poor methods, offering some correlations on a few tanks they have, but nothing that suggested causation of any sort. Poor test methods also make the issue worse.

EI is not so much a dosing method, it is not any different really than any other method such ADA, or PMDD or PPS, all add ferts, some in different locations etc, but all supply enough nutrients for a given rate of growth.

EI is a set of assumptions.

1.Excess nutrients do not cause algae outbreaks. The other methods all made this false claim (Dupla, PPS, ADA, Dennerle, PMDD) and continue to do so. When they are pressed, they switch over to the fish health argument, that too also fails to pass any muster.
Paul Sears(PMDD) expressed some concerned but was quickly convinced about PO4. He was honest about it. Many where shocked at the time, and we get a few here and there on the web that still are, although it's rare these days. Even ADA and Tropica now sell PO4 rich ferts......for higher light/faster growth tanks.

2. Fish must be tested specifically for the right set of environmental conditions we place on them, KNO3, not over loaded fish population/excess food.Those are quite different and the studies done on fish health and advice are using that information rather than adding KNO3 etc which is specifically what we are doing.

3. Water changes are good. This is for CO2, cleanliness, and resetting the levels.
ADA suggest this as well, most soil + CO2 methods do(and NH4 is a good reason in those cases, they have never referred to NH4, just NO3/PO4)

4. Higher/est light will = higher/est uptake rates, therefore any light levels below that, will have ample nutrient supply. This makes EI robust with any set up using Excel or CO2. For optimal growth, no nutrient should be limiting. So you will flush out and reset the tank each week, there's no need to adjust, although you can if you wish to run things leaner. the idea about lighting is key, because many have the same watts/gal etc but very different light intensities reaching the plants(tank lids, depth, distance from the water, bulb types etc). This way, we have enough for any set up.

5. Test kits are often wrong and cause folks to change their dosing not based on correct accurate information, folks typically do not test often anyway and then only after there is a problem rather than inducing a set of conditions and testing before, during and afterwards.........few methods suggest calibrations.........actually myself long ago and then PPS later. The rest do not even offer any suggestions there. Not one(well SeaChem's NO3 test kit has a 10ppm ref solution but they do not make nutty claims either).

6. Math models shows the build up patterns that will not lie.

Pretty straight forward stuff.

But.........sorely lacking in the hobby.

 

[nry]

I'm glad I came back to this thread with a cup of tea and a bowl of cereal!

I'm truthfully leaning towards full EI on my 15 gallon tank, I am trying to see if I can push the boat out for injected CO2, the Nutrafin kit I have can't quite cut the mustard for consistently constant CO2 levels. My only concern is the suggested 50% water change..not that it is a huge amount (two ~10 litre buckets as opposed to one), maybe I just need to find the proverbial bullet to bite! I also have a full fish load for the tank, though this doesn't appear to matter, it just means you don't need to dose (or dose as much) of the fish produced nutrients. Maybe I just need to win the PFK competition with my 5-gallon cube, then I can completely re-scape the 15-gallon and go for gold.....

 

[Dave Spencer]

Just to add, once you get your head around the principles of EI it really is easy to execute. I set up my first tank in the middle of last December as a complete noob, and now I can grow plants like this.

Not because I am particularly green thumbed, but because if you give your plants all they need to a level of excess the plants will do all your work for you, especially keeping algae at bay. You can even get the most out of red plants too.

I am a big fan of EI and recommend it thoroughly. My plants are way beyond what I expected when I first started reading up on the hobby last September, and it is down to EI. It is all about what your plants need, not about what algae doesn`t need.

EI leaves you free to practice your pruning and aquascaping skills, something for which there is no easy solution for me, unfortunately.

Give EI a go. Make sure you are heavily planted with fast growing stems at the start and you will not regret it!

Dave.

 

[mlawson]

Nice tanks Plantbrain and Dave, very nice.

I think I should give EI a go on my nano, at the moment I don't seem to use any paticular method, I still inject CO2 and add fertilisers but don't follow the rules of EI. My plants are doing OK in these conditions but I would like them to do great. I clearly know that EI works, as Dave Spencers and Plantbrains tanks demonstrate, I don't need to have any experience with it to know it works. I still don't understand why people make claims that EI doesn't work when you can see it definitely does, and the people who make those claims have not experimented with it themselves. I will be sure to be reading up on EI more.

Cheers,
Mike

 

[nry]

I am not doing badly at the moment, moved to 2.4wpg from 1wpg, CO2 via Nutrafin kit (new diffuser today instead of ladder, kept getting blocked by plant leaves growing, snails etc), JBL AquaBasis Plus below gravel (pea gravel, I really should have looked harder for some black substrate...), Seachem Flourish and Flourish Trace daily based on weekly amount. Shifted lighting from 7hours to 10hours this week...bit of a big jump but I'm trying it now I have faster growth from the plants. Tank is now 9 months old.

If algae doesn't rear its ugly head (I have small amounts of staghorn but this may be down to a change in my fish feeding, last time I had it it went once I reduced feeding levels) then I'll stay happily like this, if it does appear/get worse then I'll be looking into EI. My rotala macranda is really bright red now with much bigger leaves than before the new lighting.

 

[George Farmer]

OK, my turn. Just in case Tom's and Dave's aren't photo evidence enough...

My EI tanks, so far. Expect a 2007 update soon from my 125 litre crypt/fern 'scape.

2004 (I started the hobby in 2003)


2005


2006

 

[plantbrain]

Here's a tank that won the AGA contest after 8months in the hobby:

http/showcase.aquatic-gardeners.org/2003...vol=2&id=71

Regards,
Tom Barr

 

[nicklfire]

amazing pictures, I have a quick question about the fully planted tanks that are seen here. I run a eheim filter with a spray bar that's just below water surface pointing down. In a fully planted tank how do people position there spraybars or nozzels... because if i put plants in the middleo f my tank my spraybar would just put current from back to from and my plants would get caught in the current... just a werid question.

 

[chr15_8]

wow amazing pictures there

when i first started people suggested to do E.I. but when i first started to read it sounded really complicated dose this does that but its so easy if you premake the solution and takes less than 30 seconds if if you dont premake it it only takes a minute

i use to add off the shelf product (probably not the best one) but when i rescaped my tank i wanted to give it ago to see what all the fuss was about

i can Honestly say its the best thing that has happend to the tank the plants at the back have grown at least an inch since sunday

all my tank from now on will be E.I.

chris

 

[plantbrain]

I ask folks this: what is easier:

A typical 20 gallon tank(or a 350 gal tank etc simply scale things up)

I dose 3x a week:

1/4 teaspoon KNO3
1/16th tsp KH2PO4
5mls of Flourish or Tropica master grow

On the day of the water change(say 50%), I add 1/4 teaspoon of GH booster as well, some dechlorinator and use tap water.
Trim/prune/clean filter etc

I really ask anyone why is this routine is in any way "complicated"??

You add 3-4 things and do a 50% weekly water change.
That's it.

I do not suggest that you complicate things with test kits, RO water, worrying over this or that parameter.
If you use a drop checker for CO2, then you do not need any test kits(well the drop checker is but it's easy and works for 2-3 weeks).

Seems to me that EI is a lot simpler than any other method out there. It's also cheaper and more easily universal for anyone anywhere, KNO3 is a lot more standard than say SeaChem products.

Which is good because most folks would rather scape, garden and prune than play with test kits, RO water and algicides.

If you believe adding things to liquids is easier, that's fine, for smaller tanks that's more accurate, but accuracy is not critical unless you add way too much or try to run things too lean.

EI provides a wide range in the middle.
You can do 40% weekly or 70%Weekly or 2x a week or once every 2 weeks for the water changes etc and tweak things a little as you see fit, you lose some accuracy or gain it depending on how much % water change and frequency you want to do. A little observation will allow you to reduce the work load in many tanks(generally lower light tanks) and reduce the dosing slowly for a leaner approach if that is your desire.

Regards,
Tom Barr