Euthanasia

[WILDER]

I've always used the ice cube method.
It's pretty quick if you don't have any clove oil at hand, or don't want to chop the fish
head off.

Some info by SH

This is what I choose to do with my fish and my comments are only placed here as opinion. This is a heated topic. I choose based on my knowledge from my training:

Oil of cloves is a topical anethestic and was used in the past to treat toothaches. Lidocaine (like at the dentist's office is a topical anesthetic as well). When we operate on people we really want to achieve 2 things, analgesia and anesthesia, that is, relief of pain and unconsciousness. IMO, when a fish is immersed in oil of cloves, it is essentially 'topically anesthetized', paralyzed, but, I am NOT convinced that the fish is unconscious.....none of us will really know for sure. We don't know if the oil of cloves causes stinging to the mucus membranes, eyes, etc on initial contact nor if the fish is motionless, painless but aware.

Extreme cold is an anesthetic. When applied to skin, you can actually cut the skin and feel no pain. Cold also can cause rapid unconsciousness. In fact, hypothermia is reported to cause a state of euphoria and clouding of consciousness. Fish, at least most of the types that we keep (tropical), are extremely small and rapid immersion in extreme cold water, in my opinion, causes rapid pain relief and rapid unconsciousness. I have never seen any of my fish shows signs of what I consider suffering. They stop moving immediately and appear lifeless. Some have stated that since fish are ectothermic, this doesn't apply....perhaps in cold water fish I would agree.

I choose to euthanize my fish this way, rather than oil of cloves. One must either make an educated decision for themselves, or, choose what is currently accepted by the masses as what is humane.

Added: although I would never use blunt force to euthanize my fish, nor advocate it, one fact is for sure: death is instantaneous

SH

 

[Yanks15]

Unfortunately I have had to euthanize a few fish and honestly the cold water method works and works quickly. Just put a bowl of water in the freezer until it skins over with ice. Break the ice and drop the fish in and it's lights out. Really not an enjoyable experience but seems very quick and painless.


Thanks,
Steve

 

[WILDER]

Sorry for you loss.

 

[raptorrex]

I seriously dislike the idea of a painfull death by freezing (or at very least if the fish has to be frozen, I will have to have knocked it out first).

that's a totally unfair description of using cold water, ice and freezing.
i accept you may not, personally, like the idea.
but there is no veracity to you claim its "painful".
the ice cold water does knock out the fish.
probably faster than clove oil does, come to think of it.

one of the reasons i like the cold water and freezing method is.
everything you need is readily available to every fishkeeper, at any time.

lol, its been so long. I'd forgotten Wilder had put me on to this method

Raptorrex, can I ask if you were to be euthanised, would you prefer it to be by gradually being made colder and colder until you went unconscious, or would you rather be gradually overdosed with general anaesthetic? I think I can guess the answer. Why not apply the same principle to fish?
As to there being no veracity that it's painful - stick your hand in a bucket of iced water. See how long you can tolerate it for.

surly, if you are to comment, you should have at least a slight grasp of the subject.
As Wilder points out, its probably the most humane way to do the job.
but i forgot, this is nothing to do with fish at all. just an attempt to cause another spat.

anyway, as i said. come back when you have a grasp of the subject.

 

[WILDER]

Please keep to the topic. No personal comments.
We are all here to help one another, grow in knowledge, and experience.

 

[Bugdozer]

I seriously dislike the idea of a painfull death by freezing (or at very least if the fish has to be frozen, I will have to have knocked it out first).

that's a totally unfair description of using cold water, ice and freezing.
i accept you may not, personally, like the idea.
but there is no veracity to you claim its "painful".
the ice cold water does knock out the fish.
probably faster than clove oil does, come to think of it.

one of the reasons i like the cold water and freezing method is.
everything you need is readily available to every fishkeeper, at any time.

lol, its been so long. I'd forgotten Wilder had put me on to this method

Raptorrex, can I ask if you were to be euthanised, would you prefer it to be by gradually being made colder and colder until you went unconscious, or would you rather be gradually overdosed with general anaesthetic? I think I can guess the answer. Why not apply the same principle to fish?
As to there being no veracity that it's painful - stick your hand in a bucket of iced water. See how long you can tolerate it for.

surly, if you are to comment, you should have at least a slight grasp of the subject.
As Wilder points out, its probably the most humane way to do the job.
but i forgot, this is nothing to do with fish at all. just an attempt to cause another spat.

anyway, as i said. come back when you have a grasp of the subject.

1. It's not just "my grasp of the subject", if you read all my posts I qualify it as the view of many vets and biologists.
2. My view might not be correct, as Wilder says, we can't know for sure, but my view does have logic to it - in every animal that requires a warm environment to survive, their response to extreme cold is pain, until it reaches the point at which it numbs the sensory system completely. Have you taken my suggestion to stick your hand in a bucket of iced water yet? No, of course you haven't, and if you were to try it, you'd find that your hand does not just go from "cold" directly to "numb". It goes through a high level of pain first. You claim that my suggestion fish find gradually getting colder to be painful has no basis, and I have presented a logical reason why it does. Furthermore, you don't advocate suddenly dropping the fish in already icy water, but instead slowly lowering the temperature and prolonging the effect. A sudden temperature change as Yanks suggested is more humane.
3. I disagreed with you because I thought you were incorrect, and presented logical reasoning why that was so. You disagreed with me without presenting any reasoning at all. Therefore, if anyone is arguing just to cause a spat, it's you.

 

[fluttermoth]

I know this is a very emotive subject, but please ensure you discuss the issue, not cast aspersions on other members.

Thank you.

 

[Guppy Goon]

I would just use which ever technique is less stressful and painful for the fish. I personally think the clove oil is a god idea, freezing to death would be a painful and not very nice way to go in my opinion xx

 

[daz4321]

I have used both ways in the past and would never ever use the 'cold' method again. Clove oil all the way.

 

[DJH584]

Unfortunately I have had to euthanase four fish so far and hopefully I will have to do no more
In each case I have used the clove oil method.

I have read your opinions for and against the cold water method and, despite some reassurances by various posters that it is humane, I equate it to be being plunged stark naked into the North Sea in the middle of winter - not a pleasant thought.

So for me I will always use clove oil until such time someone comes up with a better and more humane method of putting our friends out of their misery.

David

 

[Nicole123]

I think the size of the fish is very important. I had some guppy fry that I obviously could not save and I used cold water mixed salt into it (that lowers the melting point of ice) and put ice cubes in there. Then wait and check the temperature - it should be around -3° C. If you put a tiny fish in there you will see it gasp and die immediately. Even if there was a very short pain (and I am not sure if the gasp actually indicated pain or was 'just' the reaction to instant heart failure) in this method, I think we should keep in mind the fish was suffering before which is why we had to do this. And with this method I ended this suffering quickly.
I wouldn't go for this method with anything much bigger though, because then I think it would definitely take longer for the cold to reach the heart.

 

[raptorrex]

I seriously dislike the idea of a painfull death by freezing (or at very least if the fish has to be frozen, I will have to have knocked it out first).

that's a totally unfair description of using cold water, ice and freezing.
i accept you may not, personally, like the idea.
but there is no veracity to you claim its "painful".
the ice cold water does knock out the fish.
probably faster than clove oil does, come to think of it.

one of the reasons i like the cold water and freezing method is.
everything you need is readily available to every fishkeeper, at any time.

lol, its been so long. I'd forgotten Wilder had put me on to this method

Raptorrex, can I ask if you were to be euthanised, would you prefer it to be by gradually being made colder and colder until you went unconscious, or would you rather be gradually overdosed with general anaesthetic? I think I can guess the answer. Why not apply the same principle to fish?
As to there being no veracity that it's painful - stick your hand in a bucket of iced water. See how long you can tolerate it for.

surly, if you are to comment, you should have at least a slight grasp of the subject.
As Wilder points out, its probably the most humane way to do the job.
but i forgot, this is nothing to do with fish at all. just an attempt to cause another spat.

anyway, as i said. come back when you have a grasp of the subject.

1. It's not just "my grasp of the subject", if you read all my posts I qualify it as the view of many vets and biologists.
2. My view might not be correct, as Wilder says, we can't know for sure, but my view does have logic to it - in every animal that requires a warm environment to survive, their response to extreme cold is pain, until it reaches the point at which it numbs the sensory system completely. Have you taken my suggestion to stick your hand in a bucket of iced water yet? No, of course you haven't, and if you were to try it, you'd find that your hand does not just go from "cold" directly to "numb". It goes through a high level of pain first. You claim that my suggestion fish find gradually getting colder to be painful has no basis, and I have presented a logical reason why it does. Furthermore, you don't advocate suddenly dropping the fish in already icy water, but instead slowly lowering the temperature and prolonging the effect. A sudden temperature change as Yanks suggested is more humane.
3. I disagreed with you because I thought you were incorrect, and presented logical reasoning why that was so. You disagreed with me without presenting any reasoning at all. Therefore, if anyone is arguing just to cause a spat, it's you.

you display a misunderstanding on how cold affect exothermic creatures. or, more likely, you are equating it with its effect on endothermic creatures. which is totally erroneous.
with an endothermic creature, all the "suffering" (physical and physiological) happens as the cold over powers the endothermic reaction. at that point even endotherms laps into unconsciousness, then die.
with an exotherm, they just laps into unconsciousness, and die. the speed this takes is related to body mass.
lowering the temperature slowly will actually prolong any any "suffering".
if anyone doubts the veracity of the above comments. please, go do some research into exo and endothermic life forms, and the effect cold has on them.

if you want to look at "suffering". how about the burning of skin, eyes and gills. by the clove oil, prior, to its aesthetic effect kicking in?
not to mention that the gills would stop working, prior to the oil making it to the brain (possibly.size dependent).
or the fact its quite possible to anaesthetise a fish, then discard it thinking its dead. only for it to come round in a bin bag and die of suffocation.

 

[Guppy Goon]

I think this message has had too many responses now... I think the author has chosen the clove oil method. So no need to exert yourselves

 

[WILDER]

I agree.
I will close the thread.