Ethics Of Wild Caught Fish

[Flute]

FreedomFighter, that is true of course, and it had crossed my mind and is probably the main reason why I've never seriously considered breeding them.

Just to put this into some perspective.

People taking the fish from the wild and domesticating them, this is exactly what happened with Dogs and Cats. Wild species taken and kept in the confines of a camp/building.

And I presume you have no quarrel over the purchase of a dog or cat?

Not trying to start anything, I just think it's a valid point worth saying, but at the same time I completely understand your side of the discussion and to some extent, agree with it.

I think I'm personally uncomfortable with wild caught fish (or any wild caught exotic pet for that matter) for two reasons really. Dogs and cats were domesticated thousands of years ago, and there's nothing I can do about that. It's not like if I want a German Shepherd or a poodle I have to ask someone to go and catch me one from the wild and force it to live in a totally alien environment, as dogs and cats have adapted over the years to live with us. (Also, just as a side note, I would never buy a dog or a cat, I will always have rescues, and would love to be able to get "rescue fish", but can't seem to find any >.<).

So basically if I can get a fish that is captive bred, then why should I take a wild caught specimen from it's natural environment just for my viewing pleasure (as I don't breed my fish).

Secondly I'm vegan, (and probably from the view point of most other vegans shouldn't even be keeping fish) and believe all life is equal. For me personally (and just to make this clear so that people hopefully don't take my comment the wrong way, I don't expect/demand anyone else to hold the same views), I would feel just as guilty about taking a fish from the wild as I would a macaw, or a bearded dragon, etc.
I realised this after I bought my two wild caught cichlid species, and this is why I have decided personally never to buy wild caught fish again.

So at the end of the day I guess I agree with both sides of the argument. I realise that it is essential for both the hobby and some species to survive by catching wild fish and introducing new genes into the captive stocks. As stated already by several other people, as long as there are huge numbers of the species, then fair enough. I do think however that more procedures need to be put in place to ensure that fish species don't become endangered or indeed extinct.
But because I won't be breeding my fish, I don't see the need for me to buy wild caught specimens

Hope this doesn't come across the wrong way, as I'm really tired and slightly tipsy And whoa, sorry for such a long post ^^'

 

[MrNiceGuy]

HI, ive been thinking about wild caught fish and i cant decide if it right for the fish. They are in (maybe) a safer environment but is it fair to take them from a limitless environment (a river or lake) and put them in a tanks which is small relative to nature. Also couldn't wild fish run out or drop in numbers?
What are your feelings on Wild fish being sold?

anyway you spin it its pretty obvious that it is unethical to take an animal out of its natural habitat and throw it into an aquarium. its not the worst thing in the world, but of course the animal would rather be in the wild.


as for the "its the same thing as buying a dog or cat" argument, it really isn't. a dog or cat (especially outdoor cats) are not trapped in a cage.

 

[FreedomFighter]

HI, ive been thinking about wild caught fish and i cant decide if it right for the fish. They are in (maybe) a safer environment but is it fair to take them from a limitless environment (a river or lake) and put them in a tanks which is small relative to nature. Also couldn't wild fish run out or drop in numbers?
What are your feelings on Wild fish being sold?

anyway you spin it its pretty obvious that it is unethical to take an animal out of its natural habitat and throw it into an aquarium. its not the worst thing in the world, but of course the animal would rather be in the wild.


as for the "its the same thing as buying a dog or cat" argument, it really isn't. a dog or cat (especially outdoor cats) are not trapped in a cage.

A lot of cats and dogs are kept in houses 24/7. Even so, a dog has to be walked to see the outside world, we can recreate a fishes natural habitat for it.
Effectively, it IS the same thing. What do you think the dogs cage is? It's your house.

 

[Mikaila31]

anyway you spin it its pretty obvious that it is unethical to take an animal out of its natural habitat and throw it into an aquarium. its not the worst thing in the world, but of course the animal would rather be in the wild.


as for the "its the same thing as buying a dog or cat" argument, it really isn't. a dog or cat (especially outdoor cats) are not trapped in a cage.

Explain how this is obviously unethical? There are a number of species that would be extinct if not for the aquarium hobby. I'm sure as my rainbowfish are spawning they totally wish that yarn mop was a live plant. This would actually make since except they like the yarn mop better then the live plants.

 

[gunman]

So, just to re-cap: keeping fish in an aquarium is cruel and they'd all have been better off left in their natural habitat. And there was me thinking we were all fish keepers

Face it, you can't take the moral high ground when you are keeping fish in a tank in your house, and if you aren't why are you on here?

Surely it's cruel to breed fish in captivity, the poor little things never knowing freedom. You cannot fully create their natural habitat in a tank either. In nature they would not be used to nitrate levels found in an aquarium.

So far on this forum I have seen fish likened to cats, dogs and the disabled! You have to face it, we keep fish in tanks, they won't be as happy as they would swimming in Africa\South America but we do it anyway, because we like them.

Nearly all our fish at some stage will have been packed into insulated boxes in the dark and shoved into the back of a plane\van and tossed about the place four hours\days on end. We know this and accept it, even if the fish don't think it's the greatest time of their lives!

 

[Mikaila31]

So, just to re-cap: keeping fish in an aquarium is cruel and they'd all have been better off left in their natural habitat. And there was me thinking we were all fish keepers

Face it, you can't take the moral high ground when you are keeping fish in a tank in your house, and if you aren't why are you on here?

Surely it's cruel to breed fish in captivity, the poor little things never knowing freedom. You cannot fully create their natural habitat in a tank either. In nature they would not be used to nitrate levels found in an aquarium.

So far on this forum I have seen fish likened to cats, dogs and the disabled! You have to face it, we keep fish in tanks, they won't be as happy as they would swimming in Africa\South America but we do it anyway, because we like them.

Nearly all our fish at some stage will have been packed into insulated boxes in the dark and shoved into the back of a plane\van and tossed about the place four hours\days on end. We know this and accept it, even if the fish don't think it's the greatest time of their lives!

We all don't get fish from the same place. A lot of my fish are locally bred, about 80% of them. I'm sure they are terribly longing for the Amazon river deep within their minds!!!! Yes their habitat can not be fully recreated, cuz I would rather not have a food chain functioning in my tank. If fish were not happy or satisfied with their surroundings they would not be breeding in the aquarium. Also that nitrate level thing is total BS. Guess what I got 20 ppm of nitrate out of my well. The natural spring down the road has 20ppm too and trout spawn in that water. Natives I caught were in water with at least 20ppm so IMO nitrate is of absolutely no concern here. Most rivers in reality have considerable levels of nitrates and other organics.

I'm not quite sure why humans believe free=happy. I don't see that. We are not free either and at least I hope most of us are happy . Most all of us have give up freedoms for certain rights and protection. No different then when the dog/wolf became domesticated. Your dog doesn't stick around just cuz its dumb. It could be free if it wanted too. They also gave up their freedom for certain assured benefits(though of course dogs and fish don't reason about this). I'm sure my fish really long to fight for survival during the dry season in the amazon. Oh and they get to play tag with those awesome pink dolphins!

Fish auctions I have been to take like 8 hours and yeah most fish don't think that or their bag is all that great of a time. Most put up with it just fine. Some fish like cichlids are more concerned with attacking the fish in the bag next to it. Actual auction rule that a lot of the africans have to be bagged individually cuz they are more concerned about killing each other in the bag then actually being in the bag .

 

[Geoff-]

The whole "fish would rather be in the wild" thing is humanising the fish and giving it the power of being self aware. It's bullsh1t, sorry to be blunt but it's utter rubbish. Fish don't know the difference they just know how to swim, eat, and poop. You can condition them to a degree but this doesn't mean they're intelligent, like any living creature survival is a process of learning how to eat most effectively while avoiding predators.

Fish don't think, or know freedom, or be aware that they're in a tank and miss the river they were dragged out of.

Now I think it's pretty cool that when I turn the filter off and pop the lid on my tank my tetras come to the surface in expectation of food. But I don't for a second they think "oh awesome, geoff's come to feed us. I'm so happy to see him, I hope he gives us the hikari food this time". That's ridiculous.

 

[Mikaila31]

But I don't for a second they think "oh awesome, geoff's come to feed us. I'm so happy to see him, I hope he gives us the hikari food this time". That's ridiculous.

Ya, but it IS pretty awesome that in their world food just falls from the sky on a regular basis. I wish mine did

 

[gunman]

The whole "fish would rather be in the wild" thing is humanising the fish and giving it the power of being self aware. It's bullsh1t, sorry to be blunt but it's utter rubbish. Fish don't know the difference they just know how to swim, eat, and poop. You can condition them to a degree but this doesn't mean they're intelligent, like any living creature survival is a process of learning how to eat most effectively while avoiding predators.

Fish don't think, or know freedom, or be aware that they're in a tank and miss the river they were dragged out of.

Now I think it's pretty cool that when I turn the filter off and pop the lid on my tank my tetras come to the surface in expectation of food. But I don't for a second they think "oh awesome, geoff's come to feed us. I'm so happy to see him, I hope he gives us the hikari food this time". That's ridiculous.

Couldn't agree more

 

[Ryan12]

+1 to what mikaila has said.

Also back to the original comment, i think its completely fine to get a wild caught fish if you know that you can take care of it adequately (i.e. adequate tank size, tank mates, etc.). Part of that care i think is to have the intention of breeding the fish. That way you can give the joy of your fish to someone else that may have tried to get a wild caught because they couldn't find the fish in the LFS.