Epsom Salt for Ich??

[Innesfan]

Salt (sodium chloride) and Epsom Salts (magnesium sulphate) do nothing to white spot (Ichthyophthirius). The parasites are found in fresh, brackish and seawater.

Whoa. This is not entirely correct and I think you may have misunderstood what you've read. It is true that epsom salt is of no use for ich, and that forms of ich exist in all waters, fresh to marine, BUT they are not the same form of ich. A brackish fish kept in freshwater for a while, say a mollie, that contracts freshwater ich, will be cured when put in brackish water.

Freshwater ich is indeed successfully treated with salt and has been so by countless thousands of aquarists and prescribed by fish vets for decades.

 

[Magnum Man]

so isn't Malachite Green, and Methylene Blue, what permanently stains the clear silicone on aquariums...

also I would be curious if bio film eaters, like Plecos, and Hillstream loaches, could suffer, from eating bio film, containing these or other medications???

 

[MaloK]

Most dedicated ich medicine has a very low concentration of Malachite Green but it's teamed with formaldehyde or methanol. These product doesn't stain.

 

[TwoTankAmin]

Here is one factor I do not see mentioned in this thread. And that is fish whoch survive icj will develop and iimmunity to it. This is not a permanent immunity, The sicence I have read doesn't give spefcific times which can vary.

Dickerson, H.W. and Findly, R.C., 2014. Immunity to Ichthyophthirius infections in fish: a synopsis. Developmental & Comparative Immunology, 43(2), pp.290-299.

a b s t r a c t

Ichthyophthirius multifiliis is a ciliated protozoan parasite that infects freshwater fish. It has been the subject of both applied and basic research for over 100 years, which can be attributed to its world-wide distribution and its significant economic impact on both food and aquarium fish production. I. multifiliis serves as a model for studies in fish on innate and acquired immunity, as well as on mucosal immunity. Although an obligate parasite, I. multifiliis is relatively easily passaged from infected to naïve fish in laboratory aquaria, and is easily observed and manipulated under laboratory conditions. It parasitizes the epithelia of the skin and gills, which facilitates in vivo experimentation and quanti-
fication of challenge. This review provides a description of both mucosal and systemic innate and adaptive immune responses to parasite infection, a synopsis of host–parasite immunobiology, vaccine research, and suggested areas for future research to address critical remaining questions. Studies in carp and rainbow trout have shown that extensive tissue damage occurs when the parasite invades the epithelia of the skin and gills and substantial focal and systemic inflammatory responses are elicited by the innate immune response. The adaptive immune response is initiated when phagocytic cells are activated by antigens released by the parasite. It is not known whether activated T and B
cells proliferate locally in the skin and gills following infection or migrate to these sites from the spleen or anterior kidney. I. multifiliis infection elicits both mucosal and systemic antibody production. Fish that survive I. multifiliis infection acquire protective immunity. Memory B cells provide long-term humoral memory. This suggests that protective vaccines are theoretically possible, and substantial efforts have been made toward developing vaccines in various fish species. Exposure of fish to controlled surface infections or by intracoelomic injection of live theronts provides protection. Vaccination with purified immobilization antigens, which are GPI-anchored membrane proteins, also provides protection under laboratory conditions and immobilization antigens are currently the most promising candidates for subunit vaccines against I. multifiliis.

full paper here https://www.researchgate.net/profil...yophthirius-infections-in-fish-A-synopsis.pdf

There are a number of similar papers. What interested me when I was reading the science involved with Ich and immunity, the that gact that it exists suggest the potential for developing a vaccine to im[art protection against infection.

 

[fishorama]

I'm going to vote for the old school malachite green dye, continuing for a 10-14 days treatment after all signs of ich are gone. There are many reports of heat resistant ich, but like said, it does speed up the ich lifecycle...but high temps can be detrimental to many fish. It's a tightrope walk of killing ich & stressing/killing our fish. I find that caught early & treated long enough, ich is a PITA but doesn't need to be fatal. Vacuuming the tank in between dosing helps reduce the ich "free swimmers" & reinfection.

I haven't had ich in many years (knock wood). I almost always QT new fish unless from a close friend/club member I trust to tell they haven't added any new fish for months. It doesn't "magically" appear despite what some believe. It may be hidden in the gills &/or not killed by a long enough treatment...but there is no such thing as "chronic ich". As I've learned lately, maybe epistylis rather than ich? But treatment can be similar.

Salt can be effective but is also stressful. It needs to be added, then removed slowly over several days. Many fish are not salt tolerant & may just add to the ordeal.

 

[Magnum Man]

pretty sure early treatment was the dyes. the the old magnum micron filters, with diatomaceous earth, was also recommended back then... I'd guess that UV light replaced the micron filter

 

[Colin_T]

Whoa. This is not entirely correct and I think you may have misunderstood what you've read. It is true that epsom salt is of no use for ich, and that forms of ich exist in all waters, fresh to marine, BUT they are not the same form of ich. A brackish fish kept in freshwater for a while, say a mollie, that contracts freshwater ich, will be cured when put in brackish water.

Freshwater ich is indeed successfully treated with salt and has been so by countless thousands of aquarists and prescribed by fish vets for decades.

I don't know where you got that information but in my experience it doesn't do anything to white spot. If salt (sodium chloride) killed white spot in freshwater fish, we would have been using it 40 years ago and it would be in all the fish health books. I also wouldn't have had white spot in my tanks because I used to have salt in a lot of them and one of the shops I bought fish from regularly had white spot in their tanks, which got into mine.

 

[Colin_T]

so isn't Malachite Green, and Methylene Blue, what permanently stains the clear silicone on aquariums...

also I would be curious if bio film eaters, like Plecos, and Hillstream loaches, could suffer, from eating bio film, containing these or other medications???

Methylene Blue stains silicon. Malachite Green doesn't stain.

If you use Malachite Green in an aquarium, the fish will take it into their body and it does affect them to a degree. The amount it affects them depends on the size of the fish and the concentration of Malachite Green. If fish are eating biofilm and algae covered in Malachite Green, it could increase their risk of having side effects caused by the chemical.
Malachite Green is sometimes referred to as Victoria Green. They are the same thing.

Methylene Blue is actually quite safe and they use it on people in hospital. It is about the only fish medication that raises the oxygen level in water, most other chemicals reduce the oxygen in the water.

 

[MaloK]

When I was younger there was 2 products that where extremely good with external parasites. One was called Aquari-sol and the other was called Life-Bearer.

They would get rid of Ich in short orders without the fish noticing anything. Both where described as mild medication, but to be honest they where probably the strongest stuff you could use. Loll.

I was able to find a bottle of Aquari-sol before it gets discontinued in 2006 and still today, it's the best imo.

 

[TwoTankAmin]

@MaloK
I was taught a lot of what I learned a couple of decades back by a gent I met in a now defunct fish site. We were almost the same age and heavy smokers with problems a from it. He quit cold turkey and this inspired me. When it came to fish he had over 50 years running his own store, working in others related enterprises -pet stores, fish stores and importers. I still have a bottle of AquriSol I got because of his advice. I used to use Rid Ich which it is Kordon Rid Ich Plus https://www.supercichlids.com/products/kordon-rid-ich-plus


Colin, salt has been used for a long time for Ich. Just because you were unable to use it effectively does not mean it is not effective and has not been in use for many years for treating Ich and other external [parasites. I just did a quick search on Google Scholar for "Using sodium chloride for treating Ichthyophthirius multifiliis." I specified only papers published between 1950 and 1980. If I have to compare what you say is your personal experience v.s. degreed researchers who say the opposite, guess who I will trust to have good info. But one again, if you can find the science to support what you state, I am more than happy to look at it as I am always willing to learn.

Btw when I made the date constraint 2004-2024, I get back, "About 465 results" not all were about salt as Google kicks back more potentially realated studies than for what one asks. But a lot of them will comment on sodium chloride. https://scholar.google.com/scholar?...iis&hl=en&as_sdt=0,33&as_ylo=2004&as_yhi=2024

I have the feeling you and I may be disagreeing more often. Hopefully you will be able to find some cogent scientific support for some of the things you post. I do not asked people who read what I post to believe it just because I say it. I always have support for much of what I write. Here are some of the older papers.

From 1961

Johnson, A.K., 1961. Ichthyophthiriasis in a recirculating closed-water hatchery. The Progressive Fish-Culturist, 23(2), pp.79-82.
https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/pdf/10.1577/1548-8659(1961)23[79:IIARCW]2.0.CO;2
I can only see page one of the paper without paying since I am not connected to any institution that would let me gave free access. You can read it here and I suggest you look at the last paragraph of this paper.

From 1972

Cross, D. G. (1972). A Review of Methods to Control Ichthyophthiriasis. The Progressive Fish-Culturist, 34(3), 165–170. https://doi.org/10.1577/1548-8640(1972)34[165:AROMTC]2.0.CO;2

Salt.-The use of common salt is one of the recommended treatments. Butcher [9] and Hickling [16] recommended the gradual build-up to a concentration of 1.5 to 2 percent. Different Russian authors [7] recommend concentrations of 0.6 percent sea salt, 0.7 percent sodium chloride, or a mixture of sodium chloride and magnesium chloride in the proportion 7 :3 to give a 0.6 peraent solution. Allen and A vault [!] report that brackish water may be used to eradicate I ckthyophtkirius from channel catfish. The use of salt in aquariums with mesh floors and no water flow [28, 24, 28] is a unique control technique. A high salt concentration can be maintained under the false floor while the fish remain in a lower concentration. Parasites emerging from the host drop to the tank floor where they are killed by the salt concentration. Personal experience with the use of salt has shown that it is not the panacea that it has been considered to be. The treatment did not eradicate the parasite; however, it may be beneficial in reducing the osmotic stress imposed by the presence of open wounds.

from https://www.nanfa.org/ac/ichthyophthiriasis.pdf

From 1971

Vismanis, K.O., Volkova, L.V. and Tarkach, G.M., 1971. The Ichthyophthirius disease in eel and the methods of the treatment.

Summary:	The pathogenic organism (Ichthyophthirius multifiliis Fouguet, 1876) is widely distributed among freshwater fish. It was established that the disease was one of the most dangerous eel Anguilla anguilla diseases in Latvia. The bath of 0.9 % solution of sodium chloride was recommended as the most effective remedy against the disease.

from https://www.sidalc.net/search/Record/dig-aquadocs-1834-43262/Description

I can post a few more papers if required or folks can do their own search to find them. But clearly sodium chloride has been used for many decades and is still used by some today for treating Ich and other external parasites. The problem with the much older papers is that they need one to use institutional access or else pay-per-view.

 

[Innesfan]

Colin, salt has been used for a long time for Ich. Just because you were unable to use it effectively does not mean it is not effective and has not been in use for many years for treating Ich and other external [parasites. I just did a quick search on Google Scholar for "Using sodium chloride for treating Ichthyophthirius multifiliis." I specified only papers published between 1950 and 1980. If I have to compare what you say is your personal experience v.s. degreed researchers who say the opposite, guess who I will trust to have good info.

I can post a few more papers if required or folks can do their own search to find them. But clearly sodium chloride has been used for many decades and is still used by some today for treating Ich and other external parasites. The problem with the much older papers is that they need one to use institutional access or else pay-per-view.

Thanks for doing the research, @TwoTankAmin and reporting it so effectively. How odd it is to have to defend this. Rather like being asked to defend water changes or feeding bbs to fry. I have no argument with those who prefer another treatment method, but to say salt, and specifically the progressive salt treatment, doesn't work flies in the face of fact, science, and a long, vast, worldwide experiential history of success treating ich with salt.

 

[TNG]

This is an interesting thread. We’re talking about 3 options, malachite green (follow instructions on the bottle carefully), heat (watch the temperature and it’s not suitable for cold water fish), salt (how much salt, for how long?)

I’m familiar with the first 2 and know that they are the go-to for many members here, and I’m happy to learn more about salt. Here are the bits that I find interesting:

- A member mentioned 1 gram of salt per litre of water. This seems quite low.

- Extracts by Two TankAmin from different papers provide different rates, one cited 1.5 to 2% solution (i.e, 1.5 to 2 grams of salt in 100mL of water) another cited 0.6 to 0.7% (0.6 to 0.7 grams per 100mL of water). Then it went on “The treatment did not eradicate the parasite; however, it may be beneficial in reducing the osmotic stress imposed by the presence of open wounds.”

- Another paper mentioned: “The bath of 0.9% solution of sodium chloride was recommended . . .” And there are other papers . . .

Now, I’m not bothered by the different dosage as they are different studies under different conditions. But what struck me is that if we use a dose rate of 0.9%, then for a 100 Litre or 30G aquarium I’d need 900 grams which is close to 1kg of salt! Would my tropical fish survive such salt concentration? They may survive a short bath, but what is the duration of the bath?

No doubt that some members have used salt. I’m happy to hear more about the dosage, duration of treatment, any heat applied during the treatment, etc. Any info that I can use, that would be awesome!

 

[Innesfan]

Dr. Erik Johnson, DVM, aka 'the koi vet,' offers this procedure, which I have used with great success on all sorts of fish over the years, from characins to corys to goldfish. He also offers an interesting detail about wholesalers:

 

[Colin_T]

Quite often these studies are on fish that naturally occur in brackish water or can tolerate high levels of salt (salmonids, channel catfish). Many of the results state they are not a 100% cure and are more to help reduce secondary issues. Some require special setups (mesh grids on the bottom of the tank).

Sea water has 3.5% salt and kills most freshwater fishes within hours.

1.5 to 2% salt will do serious harm to most freshwater fish if they are exposed to it for more than a few minutes. It will dehydrate the fish and damage their kidneys. To treat white spot you will need to have the salt in the water for at least a week and that will probably kill the fish. It would certainly shorten the lives of soft water species like tetras, Corydoras, angelfish, gouramis, killifish, rasboras, barbs, etc.

If salt (sodium chloride) treated white spot in normal freshwater aquarium fishes, it would be in all the fish health books and we would have been using it decades ago. I find it hard to believe that in over 100 years of people keeping freshwater fish at home, and having to deal with white spot during that time, nobody has written articles for fish books or magazines that salt can treat white spot in common aquarium fish. It's only now that the internet has appeared and there are papers appearing that say it treats white spot but you need massive amounts of salt and it's not a 100% cure.

If you can provide me with a scientific paper that shows common aquarium fishes (from soft water) like tetras, Corydoras, etc, being successfully treated (100% cure) for white spot using salt (sodium chloride), I will read it and accept it. But I doubt there will be any. The report must have dose rates used, time periods the fish need to be in salt water for, and long term health effects on those fish.

 

[Colin_T]

Dr. Erik Johnson, DVM, aka 'the koi vet,' offers this procedure, which I have used with great success on all sorts of fish over the years, from characins to corys to goldfish. He also offers an interesting detail about wholesalers:


View attachment 358427

He is a koi vet. Koi carp and goldfish tolerate salt much better than soft water fishes like tetras and Corydoras.

Everything he states in his points 1) to 7) is correct with salt being relatively safe, cheap and does help treat a lot of issues.

He doesn't explain what the following is. What are the normal precautions that must be observed?
Quote
"Still many have found that salt is a very effective annihilator of Ich infections if normal precautions are observed"
End Quote

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In the following I scale his dose rates up to 5 teaspoons of salt and 5 gallons of water so it's the same volume of water I use in my salt information below.

I'm not sure if he uses heaped teaspoons or level teaspoons of salt. I think 5 level teaspoons of salt makes roughly 1 heaped tablespoon of salt for 5 gallons (20 litres) of water. He does 3 doses over 36 hours, which makes a total of 3 heaped tablespoons of salt for 5 gallons of water. This dose rate can affect some plants but does not treat white spot.

If he uses heaped teaspoons of salt then the total dose rate appears to be about 6 heaped tablespoons of salt for 5 gallons of water, which is higher than my dose rates for salt (2 heaped tablespoons of salt per 5 gallons of water) when treating fish for Costia, Chilodonella and Trichodina, which are external protozoan parasites similar to white spot.

People get concerned about my dose rates being high but 6 heaped tablespoons of salt (higher than my maximum level of salt) for every 5 gallons of water is pretty high.

I'm not saying he doesn't know the difference between teaspoon, coffee spoon and other spoons, but some people refer to coffee spoons as teaspoons. A coffee spoon is slightly bigger than a teaspoon and holds more salt.

--------------------

This is my write-up on salt and people freak out about it, especially when using it for softwater fishes like Cories. Adding higher dose rates of salt can kill freshwater fishes and will kill aquatic plants.

SALT
Using Salt to Treat Fish Health Issues.
For some fish diseases you can use salt (sodium chloride) to treat the ailment rather than using a chemical based medication. Salt is relatively safe and is regularly used in the aquaculture industry to treat food fish for diseases. Salt has been successfully used to treat minor fungal and bacterial infections, as well as a number of external protozoan infections. Salt alone will not treat whitespot (Ichthyophthirius) or Velvet (Oodinium) but will treat most other types of external protozoan infections in freshwater fishes. Salt can treat early stages of hole in the head disease caused by Hexamita but it needs to be done in conjunction with cleaning up the tank. Salt can also be used to treat anchor worm (Lernaea), fish lice (Argulus), gill flukes (Dactylogyrus), skin flukes (Gyrodactylus), Epistylis, Microsporidian and Spironucleus infections.

You can add rock salt (often sold as aquarium salt), swimming pool salt, or any non iodised salt (sodium chloride) to the aquarium at the dose rate of 1 heaped tablespoon per 20 litres (5 gallons) of water. If there is no improvement after 48 hours you can double that dose rate so there is 2 heaped tablespoons of salt per 20 litres.

If you only have livebearers (guppies, platies, swordtails, mollies), goldfish or rainbowfish in the tank you can double that dose rate, so you would add 2 heaped tablespoons per 20 litres and if there is no improvement after 48 hours, then increase it so there is a total of 4 heaped tablespoons of salt per 20 litres.

Keep the salt level like this for at least 2 weeks but no longer than 4 weeks otherwise kidney damage can occur. Kidney damage is more likely to occur in fish from soft water (tetras, Corydoras, angelfish, Bettas & gouramis, loaches) that are exposed to high levels of salt for an extended period of time, and is not an issue with livebearers, rainbowfish or other salt tolerant species.

The salt will not affect the beneficial filter bacteria but the higher dose rate (4 heaped tablespoons per 20 litres) will affect some plants and some snails. The lower dose rate (1-2 heaped tablespoons per 20 litres) will not affect fish, plants, shrimp or snails.

After you use salt and the fish have recovered, you do a 10% water change each day for a week using only fresh water that has been dechlorinated. Then do a 20% water change each day for a week. Then you can do bigger water changes after that. This dilutes the salt out of the tank slowly so it doesn't harm the fish.

If you do water changes while using salt, you need to treat the new water with salt before adding it to the tank. This will keep the salt level stable in the tank and minimise stress on the fish.

When you first add salt, add the salt to a small bucket of tank water (2 litres or 1/2 gallon) and dissolve the salt. Then slowly pour the salt water into the tank near the filter outlet. Add the salt over a couple of minutes.