Emergency, fish dying.

[Ben2522]

Hi all. Started having fish death a couple of days ago. 240l, 24.5 degrees c, ph 6.8, planted tank. Ammonia 0, nitrite 0 nitrate 20
Lost a tiger barb looked emasticated when it died. 3 yo-yo loach now looking thin and on last legs. No obvious sign of disease or ich.

see yo-yo does look thin to you?


Do you think there is a worms infestation? If so recommended treatment?

some other fish do seemed to have stopped growing but dont look skinny as such. See image of these also.

 

[Ben2522]

Bump

 

[Byron]

I have very little experience with disease, and it is a very complex subject so I never guess. Members like @Colin_T @essjay @Deanasue may be able to suggest something when they see this.

In the meantime, if you could do a video of the fish, the loaches and barbs and others, it might clue us in to something. Rates of respiration for example can be informative, or behaviours, interactions, etc, and none of this can be seen in photos.

And, how long have you had them?

I will say I do not think the loaches are thin, I had a group of closely-related Botia kubotai for 10 years and the three males were I am sure about the same size and the two females much thicker.

 

[Ben2522]

I have very little experience with disease, and it is a very complex subject so I never guess. Members like @Colin_T @essjay @Deanasue may be able to suggest something when they see this.

In the meantime, if you could do a video of the fish, the loaches and barbs and others, it might clue us in to something. Rates of respiration for example can be informative, or behaviours, interactions, etc, and none of this can be seen in photos.

And, how long have you had them?

I will say I do not think the loaches are thin, I had a group of closely-related Botia kubotai for 10 years and the three males were I am sure about the same size and the two females much thicker.

Hi, iv had the loaches about a month. One of them has doubled in size but the other 5 haven’t grown at all. See video from link

The first loach in the video is the only one who will come out all day. Clearly on last legs. The second loach in the video is the big one who seems fine. The other 4 loaches are all in hiding and can’t find them. I assume in same state as the first loach. Had a tiger barb die the other day who looked like an anorexic. The small sick loach has been flashing against the substrait today though?
FYI the mollies shouldn’t be in the tank however a friend was going to flush them so here they are.
I must say though, everyone seems a little stressed in the tank today. Not sure why, nothing has changed in tank all week, water peramiters are all spot on.
Feeding plenty and most are eating except the loaches. See image also, barbs seem stressed. Is it because of sick fish? Head standing and flickering fins, almost like a don’t come near me display.

 

[Byron]

Having watched the video a couple times, I honestly do not see anything that stands out as trouble. The photos are a bit different, but I am going to leave this for the other members I mentioned to address. I will just say though that the loaches exhibit the behaviours you mention normally. I frequently never saw my group of dwarf chain loaches nor the group of Botia kubotai, though when I fed them if I stayed sitting motionless in front of the tank I generally would see them. But they are frequently rather shy and timid. Of course, any issues can increase this stress.

The mollies are going to have real problems though, so something needs to be done about them. You haven't given your GH, but a pH of 6.8 is way too low for mollies, and ity suggests softish water. This is fine for the barbs, loaches, and most any SA or SE Asian fish, but not for livebearers which must have moderately hard or harder water. The mollies are acting normally now, but don't let that fool you; softish water and an acidic pH slowly impacts these fish (livebearers) and as they seriously weaken other issues can arise. Their lifespan is considerably shortened by this; their physiology needs the dissolved mineral in the water.

Nitrate at 20 is high and it wold be better to get this down, Is this normal? Do you have nitrate in the source (tap) water? If it is occurring solely within the tank's biological system, that is relatively easy to deal with.

 

[Colin_T]

If you use a phone to film fish, turn the phone so it is horizontal (not vertical) and the footage will fill the entire screen instead of occupying a small strip in the middle. It makes it a lot easier to see the fish.

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Intestinal worms do not kill fish quickly and most fish will live for months or even years with worms.

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One of the mollies has clamped fins. If you got the mollies recently (in the last week or two) they probably introduced a disease.

You mention the loach is rubbing on the substrate and other fish are flicking fins. This combined with the clamped fins on the molly would suggest an external protozoan infection.

Costia, Chilodonella & Trichodina are 3 common external protozoan infections. These appear as cream, white or grey patches on the body of the fish. The fish will rub on objects in the tank and in bad cases, the patches can go red, which is blood coming out of the fish.

White spot & Velvet are also external protozoan infections. White spot produces the typical small white spots on the body and fin.

If you shine a torch on fish at night when the tank lights are off, and the fish has a yellow/ gold sheen over its body, that is Velvet.

Velvet and white spot can affect fish's gills before it shows up on their body and fins.

-------------
The easiest way to treat external protozoan infections is with salt and heat. Salt will kill Costia, Chilodonella and Trichodina. Heat (30C for 2 weeks) will kill white spot and Velvet.

Add 2 heaped tablespoons of rock salt, sea salt, or swimming pool salt for every 20 litres of tank water. Keep the salt in the tank for 2 weeks.

If you do water changes while using salt, add salt to the new water before adding it to the tank.

Raise the water temperature to 30C and keep it there for 2 weeks. Then reduce the temperature to 24C.

------------
Before you add salt of raise the temperature, do the following.

Wipe the inside of the glass with a clean fish sponge.

Do a 80-90% water change and gravel clean the substrate. Make sure any new water is free of chlorine/ chloramine before it's added to the tank.

Clean the filter. Wash filter media/ materials in a bucket of tank water and re-use the media. Tip the bucket of dirty water on the garden/ lawn.

Increase aeration/ surface turbulence to maximise oxygen levels in the water.

Insulate the tank so the heater doesn't have to work as hard to keep the temperature at 30C. You can stick polystyrene foam to the back and sides of the tank. Have a coverglass on top of the tank. Put a towel or blanket over the tank at night to help trap heat. Make sure the blanket doesn't get wet because it can wick water out of the tank.

 

[seangee]

The headstanding barb in the final pic looks like it is pine-coned.

 

[Ben2522]

Oh just noticed this on a barb also. White poo.. this has been the norm since I got the barbs though? Read this isn’t normal?

Having watched the video a couple times, I honestly do not see anything that stands out as trouble. The photos are a bit different, but I am going to leave this for the other members I mentioned to address. I will just say though that the loaches exhibit the behaviours you mention normally. I frequently never saw my group of dwarf chain loaches nor the group of Botia kubotai, though when I fed them if I stayed sitting motionless in front of the tank I generally would see them. But they are frequently rather shy and timid. Of course, any issues can increase this stress.

The mollies are going to have real problems though, so something needs to be done about them. You haven't given your GH, but a pH of 6.8 is way too low for mollies, and ity suggests softish water. This is fine for the barbs, loaches, and most any SA or SE Asian fish, but not for livebearers which must have moderately hard or harder water. The mollies are acting normally now, but don't let that fool you; softish water and an acidic pH slowly impacts these fish (livebearers) and as they seriously weaken other issues can arise. Their lifespan is considerably shortened by this; their physiology needs the dissolved mineral in the water.

Nitrate at 20 is high and it wold be better to get this down, Is this normal? Do you have nitrate in the source (tap) water? If it is occurring solely within the tank's biological system, that is relatively easy to deal with.

hi thanks. Ye the mollies are temporary until I can find them a home. Didn’t want them being flushed. Should be fine in a couple of days. In terms of the loach behaviour, they have been the most active fish since getting them, showing as a 6 piece and hanging up on the odd barb who got shirty. Not shy in any way. That’s why it’s so odd that they have split off and hidden and don’t seem to be growing where as the big one has doubled in size and is in no way shy. Nitrate is a little height but entirely natural theorugh the process. Water change tomorrow. 70% weekly as I feed them well.
Will see what does but as I’m sure you also know when something is t right with your tank. I have that feeling if today. Will update in the morning but I’m expecting floaters...

 

[Ben2522]

The headstanding barb in the final pic looks like it is pine-coned.

What does pineconed? mean? They all took the same to me so all will be that?

 

[FishkeeperLinz]

What does pineconed? mean? They all took the same to me so all will be that?

Pineconed or pineconing is when the fish's scales stick out from the body, so that when viewed from above, the fish looks like a pinecone. It's a sign of dropsy.

 

[Colin_T]

Do the water change and gravel clean now.
Add salt now.
Raise the temperature now.

If this is white spot or velvet or any protozoan infection, the sooner you start treating, the more chance you have of saving the fish.

 

[Ben2522]

lol

If you use a phone to film fish, turn the phone so it is horizontal (not vertical) and the footage will fill the entire screen instead of occupying a small strip in the middle. It makes it a lot easier to see the fish.

-------------
Intestinal worms do not kill fish quickly and most fish will live for months or even years with worms.

-------------
One of the mollies has clamped fins. If you got the mollies recently (in the last week or two) they probably introduced a disease.

You mention the loach is rubbing on the substrate and other fish are flicking fins. This combined with the clamped fins on the molly would suggest an external protozoan infection.

Costia, Chilodonella & Trichodina are 3 common external protozoan infections. These appear as cream, white or grey patches on the body of the fish. The fish will rub on objects in the tank and in bad cases, the patches can go red, which is blood coming out of the fish.

White spot & Velvet are also external protozoan infections. White spot produces the typical small white spots on the body and fin.

If you shine a torch on fish at night when the tank lights are off, and the fish has a yellow/ gold sheen over its body, that is Velvet.

Velvet and white spot can affect fish's gills before it shows up on their body and fins.

-------------
The easiest way to treat external protozoan infections is with salt and heat. Salt will kill Costia, Chilodonella and Trichodina. Heat (30C for 2 weeks) will kill white spot and Velvet.

Add 2 heaped tablespoons of rock salt, sea salt, or swimming pool salt for every 20 litres of tank water. Keep the salt in the tank for 2 weeks.

If you do water changes while using salt, add salt to the new water before adding it to the tank.

Raise the water temperature to 30C and keep it there for 2 weeks. Then reduce the temperature to 24C.

------------
Before you add salt of raise the temperature, do the following.

Wipe the inside of the glass with a clean fish sponge.

Do a 80-90% water change and gravel clean the substrate. Make sure any new water is free of chlorine/ chloramine before it's added to the tank.

Clean the filter. Wash filter media/ materials in a bucket of tank water and re-use the media. Tip the bucket of dirty water on the garden/ lawn.

Increase aeration/ surface turbulence to maximise oxygen levels in the water.

Insulate the tank so the heater doesn't have to work as hard to keep the temperature at 30C. You can stick polystyrene foam to the back and sides of the tank. Have a coverglass on top of the tank. Put a towel or blanket over the tank at night to help trap heat. Make sure the blanket doesn't get wet because it can wick water out of the tank.

Hi, thanks. Just shined a torch and took some pictures with the flash in the dark. I’m almost certain it isnt white spot there aren’t any on any of the fins or body of any of the fish. Checked that first. There doesn’t seem to be any physical difference with the barbs or any of the loaches except the symptoms I mention. As for the pineconing, can’t tell. The last tiger barb to die was extremely thin, imagine an anorexic at the point of death. The smaller loaches haven’t grown in a mo th since getting them but the alpha of the 6 has doubled in size. This leads me to believe it’s something on the inside stopping growth and wasting them away, sucking energy out of them.
Cleaned filter yesterday in tank water. Also hoovered yesterday, 70% water change tomorrow as usual weekly. Are we thinking velvet? Don’t tigers have a yellow tinge anyway? Now you mention it the largest loach is t completely silver? See video again of big loach, his belly is slightly yellow ish? See images of barbs in complete darkness with flash on.

 

[Ben2522]

Worth noting during my research phase I ordered some ich x . Would this clear it all? And raise temp to 30? Won’t 30 kill the fish though? Way above their tolerance?

 

[Ben2522]

Ok reading on velvet, that seems likely form one of the new additions to my tank.
Will ich x medicine kill it? @Colin_T I can buy special velvet medicine tomorrow morning from a shop, do you recoomend salt as well? Also 30 degrees, isn’t that to extreme for my fish? 28?

 

[Colin_T]

The tiger barb in the pictures does not have velvet. The yellow reflection is light coming off the scales.

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Male loaches are smaller and slimmer than females. The females get bigger and fatter because they take more food and develop eggs, which makes them fatter.

------------------
Fish rubbing/ flicking on objects in the tank, clamped fins, and breathing rapidly are all symptoms of an external protozoan infection. This combined with the fact you recently added some mollies, suggests an external protozoan infection.

------------------
Chemical Medications that contain Copper or Malachite Green will treat velvet, white spot or any other external protozoan infection. However, chemicals are toxic and can kill the fish if you overdose.

Malachite Green (aka Victoria Green) is carcinogenic/ causes cancer.

------------------
Raising the water temperature to 30C is the safest way to treat velvet or white spot and you don't need chemicals. Salt is the safest treatment for other external protozoan infections.

30C is fine for all tropical fish as long as there is plenty of oxygen and clean water.