Dwarf Gourami Genetics

[aiwenbettas]

Is there any background about Dwarf Gourami(Colisa lalia) genetics? By genetics, I mean if any specific crosses will produce any specific colors or finnage. I have only seen Blue and Red males in my life and only Gold/Silver tinted females. I'm very curious to why gouramis only limit to those colors as compared to their relative, another anabantoid, Betta splendens.

I mean bettas used to come in only "dull" colors too but after many years of domestication and selective breeding we have all these wonder colors and finnage ranging from orange to purple and plakat to crowntail and halfmoon.

Thanks in advance.

 

[sylvia]

Females are always duller than males - it's not that they are different color morphs or anything.

Betta splendens has been bred for way, way longer than any dwarf. The potential for new colors is there - it's the time that's lacking. Also, there aren't many 'dedicated' dwarf gourami breeders out there - they are, instead, mass-bred in Asia for the general fishkeeping community. Their fragility also means very few people bother trying to breed them in the first place. The betta's history as a fighting fish means it was bred extensively. This sort of intense selective breeding inevitably leads to new variations.

In the dwarf, selective breeding has produced solid red and blue (usually called flame/red and powder blue respectively) morphs which lack vertical banding. You could treat these colors as 'recessive'. If you breed a banded fish to a solid one, you almost always get a majority of banded offspring (of course, the ancestry of the parents will affect this). Other morphs are just variations on the wild color - with more or less blue or red banding. These, when crossed, will tend to produce 'intermediate' forms.

 

[aiwenbettas]

Females are always duller than males - it's not that they are different color morphs or anything.

Betta splendens has been bred for way, way longer than any dwarf. The potential for new colors is there - it's the time that's lacking. Also, there aren't many 'dedicated' dwarf gourami breeders out there - they are, instead, mass-bred in Asia for the general fishkeeping community. Their fragility also means very few people bother trying to breed them in the first place. The betta's history as a fighting fish means it was bred extensively. This sort of intense selective breeding inevitably leads to new variations.

In the dwarf, selective breeding has produced solid red and blue (usually called flame/red and powder blue respectively) morphs which lack vertical banding. You could treat these colors as 'recessive'. If you breed a banded fish to a solid one, you almost always get a majority of banded offspring (of course, the ancestry of the parents will affect this). Other morphs are just variations on the wild color - with more or less blue or red banding. These, when crossed, will tend to produce 'intermediate' forms.

Oh I see. No wonder there's never any gold/silver males.

I've tried breeding my DGs once a few months ago but it failed. The female wouldn't go to the nest with him. I will try again. Perhaps a stronger concentration of IAL would help? Any tips Sylvia?

I am not intending to give up on breeding them. I've had the male for about 5 months and the female for 3-4 months. They've been going strong with no illnesses so I have 2 healthy specimens to start off with.

Do you happen to have pictures of the bandless DGs? I believe I've seen the red bandless with blue iridesent dorsal but not the blue yet. It should be interesting.

 

[sylvia]

IAL is Indian Almond Leaf I presume? I've never used this myself (not even for bettas - I know it's popular with breeders). My first reaction woould be to not increase the concentration - what effect does it have on pH and hardness? Dwarf gouramies (as with most gouramies) are very sensitive to pH fluctuations and changes in hardness. I prefer to leave them in tap water without attempting to use any additives, which it can be tricky to control the effects of.

What temperature is/was the breeding tank at (I assume you have a seperate tank set up)? Around 80 deg F is usually good for breeding but a rise in temp. might be needed to actually trigger spawning.

Can you describe the setup generally? I normally keep it bare-bottomed, have a few fake plants or a styrofoam cup (cut lengthways as often provided for bettas), a ceramic pot for the female, a sponge filter, heater and hood with lights.

What are the pair being fed? They need to be conditioned - particularly the female - on live or frozen bloodworm, blackworm, brine shrimp etc but also supplemented with veggies. The female will be notably plump when ready to spawn - perhaps she was just too immature before.

Finaly, are the pair being kept seperately? It's a good idea to keep them in seperate tanks and introduce them to the breeding tank as you would bettas later on, after conditioning. If you are keeping them together, the female may also be rather stressed from the male's attention. It's best to keep at least 2 females per male for this reason. But seperating before spawning is still useful.

I don't really know what to suggest - I'm probably going to be suggesting you do things you've already done That's why I've asked a rather many questions... sorry about that lol

 

[aiwenbettas]

Yup IAL is Indian Almond Leaf. I only floated a few in the corner for him to bubblenest under the previous time and whatever leached out just added to the effect. Not much pH fluctuations though.

The tank was at 80F yep. Bare bottom, sponge filter in the corner, heater on the back wall, a few strands of hornwort, and 2-3 portions of IAL in the corner for the male. She did not look at all afraid or stress for the whole period of 5 days in there with him.

I fed both live blackworms, FD bloodworms, and golden pearls. They were conditioned yup But I bet she was still young. Might have been one of the reasons.

But the second reason might have been that they lived in the same community tank before I isolated them in the spawn tank. If I am to seperate before for a brief period(a week). Should they be kept away from all views of other fish or is it alright to have them in 2 different community tanks?

I did buy 2 females to start with but one of them died during QT. So I was left with one and there were no more at the store when I went back.

I heard doing a WC on the spawn tank while they are in there and replacing with cooler water will trigger a spawn like after a raining season. Might try that out if they don't get in the act this time around.

 

[sylvia]

What you mentioned with doing a water change I've come to think is actually just down to the increase in temp. - you do the cool water change and the subsequent temp. rise triggers spawning. It seems easier just to keep the tank cooler by a few degrees (only 2-4) and increase the temp. for the same effect - but with more control and less risk of shock. Of course, feel free to try anything lol Dwarfs are one of the gouramies less inclined to spawn when you want them to (they seem happy to do it when they are not supposed to though).

Alternatively, what I do is just keep the breeding tank at a higher temp. than the tanks in which they are kept beforehand - adding two (conditioned) adults then normally triggers spawning. Sometimes I add the male first and float the female to see if he builds a nest (like you would do with bettas). It does depend somewhat on the individual fish - once you've spawned them once, you'll know what's needed for next time.

Yes, BTW, keeping them in seperate communitites is ideal. They are actually better off with other (non-gourami) tankmates as this'll normally make them feel more relaxed (small schooling fish etc). I'd condition them in there. They should really spawn within a couple of days once moved to the breeding tank. If they are in there together too long, the female is usually harassed so much that the stress means spawning after a point is extremely unlikely.

BTW, I forgot to post pics of solid blue dwarfs... here are a few from google:
http/homepage.mac.com/f_carnivore/.Pictu...4B1772D11DA.jpg
http/www.centralpets.com/critter_images/...30909152421.jpg
http/www.aquahobby.com/powder.html
http/www.otsuka-nettaigyo.com/img/Cobalt...rami-female.jpg

http/www.aquariumfish.net/images_01/gourami_dwarf_red.jpg - red

BTW, here's what I meant about different extents of red/blue banding:
http/www.winternet.com/~mchristi/fish/dwarfgourami.jpg
http/133.11.37.221/users/naibunpi/Image/...i-photo-old.jpg
http/www.aquariumfish.net/images_01/dwar...mi_102_w300.jpg
http/www.thekrib.com/Fish/gourami.jpg
http/www.petfishtalk.com/images/gourami_neon_blue_male.jpg
http/www.thetropicaltank.co.uk/Fishindx/...cs/dwfgour1.jpg
http/freshaquarium.about.com/library/graphics/fw0114.jpg

 

[aiwenbettas]

Thanks for the tips. I'll split them up right now. And I know what you mean by that. Heh, bettas are worst, sometimes you want them to spawn... nothing. Second time they finally spawn... stupid boy eats the eggs...

Wow! I really like this one! I guess if I can finally get them to spawn, going on from there won't be a problem

Just a recap, this is my male:

This is my female:

*pictures are a few months old but they look the same, just bigger.