Drape Fin Barb — Females dying and injured!

[dubadotcom]

I have had a shoal of Drape Fin Barb (oreichthys crenuchoides) for over two years and they are fantastic. It's been wonderful watching them grow up. I started with three males and three females, but have lost two females recently and under strange circumstances.

They have always seemed happy and healthy. I've never seen any aggression, since reaching maturity they've been breeding unaided (advice on which this forum graciously provided) and I've never noticed any behavioural or health issues.

Yet about a month ago one of the females was found on the floor near the tank, and far too late. I was completely shocked, but I've never seen any chasing and thought it must have been an anomaly. Really, they all seem to get along famously.

Last night I came home and noticed another female missing. After searching for ages I found the poor thing, deceased and somehow completely wedged between a decoration and the glass of the tank. Buried in the substrate as if trying desperately to escape something. It was heartbreaking!

And today, my third female has an injury (image attached). She is acting normally if a bit jittery—not timid or shy or hiding. She's interacting with the others and even courting a bit.

The obvious answer is that the females are being terrorised when I'm not looking. I acknowledge this is very possible, but I cannot express enough that I have never seen any aggressive behaviour in this group.

What can I do to help her? And what can I do about the bigger issue here? Please help if you're able.

They live in a 70l community tank with four dwarf gouramis, a pleco, one ageing guppy (long story), some shrimp and a scattering of their fry I haven't been able to catch and re-home yet.

Thank you!

 

[CassCats]

Looking to be some sort of bacterial issue rather than anything, like a Saddleback version of columnaris or similar.

Id start with a salt treatment with these guys.

Also your dwarf gouramis are the 1 male and 3 females or all males? They could be aggressive if all male or more than one male...

 

[dubadotcom]

Looking to be some sort of bacterial issue rather than anything, like a Saddleback version of columnaris or similar.

Id start with a salt treatment with these guys.

Also your dwarf gouramis are the 1 male and 3 females or all males? They could be aggressive if all male or more than one male...

Thanks so much for your reply. I hadn't even thought of bacterial. Interesting about the columnaris.. the injury isn't flat or flush to the body, rather lifting and flaking. Could this still be the case? And if so, could it explain the strange flight behaviour of the other two females?

Would you salt treat the whole tank in this instance? I don't have a hospital set up currently.

I wrote gouramis, but meant corydoras. Sorry, long day.

Thanks again!

 

[Colin_T]

The cream/ white patch on the side of the fish is excess mucous that is covering an injured area. The red underneath the white patch is either bacterial or protozoan.

There's also a red area on the lower part of the caudal peduncle (where the tail meets the body).

Fish panicking and dashing about is either poor water quality or a protozoan or bacterial infection (usually protozoan).

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What is the ammonia, nitrite, nitrate and pH of the tank water?
How often do you do water changes and how much do you change?
Do you gravel clean the substrate when you do a water change?
How often and how do you clean the filter?

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Wipe the inside of the glass down with a clean fish sponge.

Do a 75% water change and gravel clean the substrate every day for a week then do it once a week after that. The water changes and gravel cleaning will reduce the number of disease organisms in the water and provide a cleaner environment for the fish to recover in.
Make sure any new water is free of chlorine/ chloramine before it is added to the tank.

Clean the filter if it hasn't been done in the last 2 weeks. Wash the filter materials/ media in a bucket of tank water and re-use them. Tip the bucket of dirty water on the garden/ lawn.

Increase surface turbulence/ aeration when using salt or medications because they reduce the dissolved oxygen in the water.

Add salt, (see directions below).

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SALT
You can add rock salt (often sold as aquarium salt), sea salt or swimming pool salt to the aquarium at the dose rate of 2 heaped tablespoon per 20 litres of water.

If you only have livebearers (guppies, platies, swordtails, mollies), goldfish or rainbowfish in the tank you can double that dose rate, so you would add 4 heaped tablespoons per 20 litres.

Keep the salt level like this for at least 2 weeks but no longer than 4 weeks otherwise kidney damage can occur. Kidney damage is more likely to occur in fish from soft water (tetras, Corydoras, angelfish, gouramis, loaches) that are exposed to high levels of salt for an extended period of time, and is not an issue with livebearers, rainbowfish or other salt tolerant species.

The salt will not affect the beneficial filter bacteria but the higher dose rate (4 heaped tablespoons per 20 litres) will affect some plants and some snails. The lower dose rate will not affect plants, shrimp or snails.

After you use salt and the fish have recovered, you do a 10% water change each day for a week using only fresh water that has been dechlorinated. Then do a 20% water change each day for a week. Then you can do bigger water changes after that. This dilutes the salt out of the tank slowly so it doesn't harm the fish.

If you do water changes while using salt, you need to treat the new water with salt before adding it to the tank. This will keep the salt level stable in the tank and minimise stress on the fish.

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If there's no improvement after a few days with salt, post some more pictures, include pictures of the other fish too.

 

[dubadotcom]

What is the ammonia, nitrite, nitrate and pH of the tank water?
How often do you do water changes and how much do you change?
Do you gravel clean the substrate when you do a water change?
How often and how do you clean the filter?

Thank you very much for all the helpful advice. To answer the above:

Amonia: 0
Nitrite: 0
Nitrate: ~25 mg/l
pH: 6.8

Weekly water changes, roughly 10%.
I clean the gravel occasionally, maybe monthly.
Filter cleaned weekly with water changes.

I have had an increase in mulm (and snails) since the barbs started breeding (I'm not set up for it!) but otherwise thought the water quality was okay.

I will get started on the salt treatment right away! Much obliged!

 

[Colin_T]

You need to do bigger water changes. I recommend 75% each week. Small water changes (10%) don't do anything to help the fish.

You do water changes for 2 main reasons.
1) to reduce nutrients like ammonia, nitrite & nitrate.
2) to dilute disease organisms in the water.

Fish live in a soup of microscopic organisms including bacteria, fungus, viruses, protozoans, worms, flukes and various other things that make your skin crawl. Doing a big water change and gravel cleaning the substrate on a regular basis will dilute these organisms and reduce their numbers in the water, thus making it a safer and healthier environment for the fish.

If you do a 10% water change each week, you leave 90% of the bad stuff in the tank.
If you do a 25% water change each week, you leave 75% of the bad stuff in the water.
If you do a 50% water change each week, you leave 50% of the bad stuff in the water.
If you do a 75% water change each week, you leave 25% of the bad stuff in the water.

Fish live in their own waste. Their tank and filter is full of fish poop. The water they breath is filtered through fish poop. Cleaning filters, gravel and doing big regular water changes, removes a lot of this poop and makes the environment cleaner and healthier for the fish.

 

[dubadotcom]

You need to do bigger water changes. I recommend 75% each week. Small water changes (10%) don't do anything to help the fish.

You do water changes for 2 main reasons.
1) to reduce nutrients like ammonia, nitrite & nitrate.
2) to dilute disease organisms in the water.

Fish live in a soup of microscopic organisms including bacteria, fungus, viruses, protozoans, worms, flukes and various other things that make your skin crawl. Doing a big water change and gravel cleaning the substrate on a regular basis will dilute these organisms and reduce their numbers in the water, thus making it a safer and healthier environment for the fish.

If you do a 10% water change each week, you leave 90% of the bad stuff in the tank.
If you do a 25% water change each week, you leave 75% of the bad stuff in the water.
If you do a 50% water change each week, you leave 50% of the bad stuff in the water.
If you do a 75% water change each week, you leave 25% of the bad stuff in the water.

Fish live in their own waste. Their tank and filter is full of fish poop. The water they breath is filtered through fish poop. Cleaning filters, gravel and doing big regular water changes, removes a lot of this poop and makes the environment cleaner and healthier for the fish.

Thank you for this. All my previous research has suggested 10-20% weekly is optimal, and that larger water changes (over 50%) are dangerous. I'd love some insight on this from your perspective.

In much sadder news, when I awoke this morning my ill barb was much worse, upside down and listless with bursts of erratic movement. She's since passed away.

I've started the salt treatment as per your instructions and I'll await any further thoughts on water change percentages. Is there anything else I can do other than keep an eye on the other inhabitants? I'm conscious that now I have three males and no females. As I mentioned before there are also a handful of fry, some of which are old enough for them to interact with but not yet old enough to sex.

Advice much appreciated as always.

 

[Colin_T]

Small water changes (10-20%) is what they recommended years ago and many shops still recommend small changes. But my own personal experience (and others who work in retail and wholesale) has found bigger is better, as long as the new water is free of chlorine/ chloramine before it's added to the tank, and as long as the new water has a similar chemistry (pH, GH, KH) to the tank water.

The only time big water changes are not safe is if the tank hasn't had any water changes for a long time. Then a big water change can cause pH, GH and KH shock to the fish and kill them. If you have an aquarium that has not been maintained and had no water changes for a few months, then do small (10%) water changes each day for a week, then increase it to 20% each day for a week. Then increase it to 30% each day for a week, then 50% each day for a week. After that you can do big water changes each week.

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Don't do water changes on the day you get new fish or for a week after you get new fish. This allows them to settle into the tank and recover from the stress of being moved from the shop to your tank.

If you are planning on getting new fish, do a water change and gravel clean the substrate 1 or 2 days before you get them so the tank is clean for them and they won't need another water change for a week.

If you ever get new fish, try to quarantine them for at least 2 (preferably 4) weeks before adding them to an established tank.