Don’t understand my tank….

[CarloM12]

Hello everyone,

I’ve had my 75 gallon planted tank for over 2 years now, and it feels like nothing really grows or does anything and I’m not sure why. There’s a fluval spectrum LED light meant for plants on about 10 hours a day, using NA Thrive once a week as a complete fertilizer which is supposed to be one of the best on the market along with root tabs. It’s an ecocomplete substrate as well.

However there’s so many plants in particular swords that are staying low giving off new leaves but not growing upwards. It’s very annoying to see the same process occur everytime I introduce a new one, the old leaves die off and then I’m left with a short plant with healthy new leaves none taller than 5 inches. On top of this I have some algae problems on plant leaves such as the Anubias which get it really bad. Not sure what the problem is but I’m losing patience with this tank and I hope to be able to get some help from you guys. I will attack some pictures below thanks.

 

[BlueJungle]

Hi. I was very recently experiencing a very similar problem in my 65 gallon tank. Turns out it was to do with water flow. The nutrients from the fertiliser just weren’t been circulated around the plants effectively.

I now have the filter outlet (a spray bar in my case), and a power head situated just under the waters surface, pushing the water parallel with the surface, from back to front. The water is the directed down the front glass and along the substrate, then back up the back glass where there is an area of low pressure. This has largely solved my issue and the plants are growing much better.

 

[DAnCSF]

I guess I would say what's the issue? from your pics the tank looks fine, are your fish and plants dying left and right? If not it's probably just needing some little adjustments here and there, much as recommended by BlueJungle.

 

[Byron]

It would help to have more data, but in the interim I can offer a couple suggestions. There is a nutrient problem and likely an imbalance of light/nutrients. Here's a link to the "Thrive" site, which of the liquids are you using? I have never used nor even seen these before, but if the ingredients are listed it may tell us something, but there are 11 or so different liquids. Also, do you have the GH of your source water?

Aquarium Plant Liquid Fertilizer Selection | NilocG Aquatic Labs

The NilocG Aquatic Labs aquarium liquid fertilizer selection offers a wide variety of Thrive fertilizers and other liquid fertilizer for aquatic plants.

www.nilocg.com

The black brush algae appearing on the Anubias is due to bright lighting over this particular plant. Anubias is a low-light/low nutrient plant, and it would be better with a cover of floating plants. The light intensity and duration are obviously factors, I'll come to that later, but shade of some sort would help this issue.

Echinodorus species (the various swords) are heavy root feeders and always benefit from substrate tabs. I know Eco-complete is touted as some sort of plant substrate, but so many aquarists have said it made no difference I doubt it is doing much if anything. I had Flourite for two years in one tank, much the same sort of substrate, and the benefit was minimal. I tossed it out and went with play sand. You also cannot have some substrate fish like cories over these substrates for various reasons. I have been using Seachem's Flourish Tabs for over a decade now, with amazing results.

Another issue about the Echinodorus...nurseries grow these emersed, meaning the roots are in water but not the leaves. Being bog or marsh plants in their habitat, this is possible, and emersed cultivation is far less costly than submersed. The leaf form of the plant grown emersed will vary from when it is grown submersed, both in appearance and more importantly for the plant, structure. This is why, or one reason why, the new leaves which grow from the centre of the crown, will appear different from those on the plant when purchased. So this is not a "problem" as such, and once the plant is settled and with adequate nutrition, submersed leaves may be different again. I have had adventitious plants from the same parent plant grow very differently depending upon the conditions in different tanks.

To the light, assuming the intensity and spectrum are adequate (do you have the Kelvin rating?), the nutrients are not likely sufficient to balance. Easy answer here is to reduce the light duration. My tank lights are on 7 hours daily, and after several months I found this was just right to avoid any problem algae (haven't been plagued with black brush or any other problem algae for 4 years now). Increasing the fertilizer could make things much, much worse, but let's pin down just what is going in the tank. A timer for the tank light is a good idea, for consistency every 24 hours, which is not only important for plants but very much so for fish.

 

[CarloM12]

It would help to have more data, but in the interim I can offer a couple suggestions. There is a nutrient problem and likely an imbalance of light/nutrients. Here's a link to the "Thrive" site, which of the liquids are you using? I have never used nor even seen these before, but if the ingredients are listed it may tell us something, but there are 11 or so different liquids. Also, do you have the GH of your source water?

Aquarium Plant Liquid Fertilizer Selection | NilocG Aquatic Labs

The NilocG Aquatic Labs aquarium liquid fertilizer selection offers a wide variety of Thrive fertilizers and other liquid fertilizer for aquatic plants.

www.nilocg.com

The black brush algae appearing on the Anubias is due to bright lighting over this particular plant. Anubias is a low-light/low nutrient plant, and it would be better with a cover of floating plants. The light intensity and duration are obviously factors, I'll come to that later, but shade of some sort would help this issue.

Echinodorus species (the various swords) are heavy root feeders and always benefit from substrate tabs. I know Eco-complete is touted as some sort of plant substrate, but so many aquarists have said it made no difference I doubt it is doing much if anything. I had Flourite for two years in one tank, much the same sort of substrate, and the benefit was minimal. I tossed it out and went with play sand. You also cannot have some substrate fish like cories over these substrates for various reasons. I have been using Seachem's Flourish Tabs for over a decade now, with amazing results.

Another issue about the Echinodorus...nurseries grow these emersed, meaning the roots are in water but not the leaves. Being bog or marsh plants in their habitat, this is possible, and emersed cultivation is far less costly than submersed. The leaf form of the plant grown emersed will vary from when it is grown submersed, both in appearance and more importantly for the plant, structure. This is why, or one reason why, the new leaves which grow from the centre of the crown, will appear different from those on the plant when purchased. So this is not a "problem" as such, and once the plant is settled and with adequate nutrition, submersed leaves may be different again. I have had adventitious plants from the same parent plant grow very differently depending upon the conditions in different tanks.

To the light, assuming the intensity and spectrum are adequate (do you have the Kelvin rating?), the nutrients are not likely sufficient to balance. Easy answer here is to reduce the light duration. My tank lights are on 7 hours daily, and after several months I found this was just right to avoid any problem algae (haven't been plagued with black brush or any other problem algae for 4 years now). Increasing the fertilizer could make things much, much worse, but let's pin down just what is going in the tank. A timer for the tank light is a good idea, for consistency every 24 hours, which is not only important for plants but very much so for fish.

I'm using the one for low tech tanks which is Thrive C. I understand but it feels like the swords have been frozen in growth for years, the leaves are generating but nothing grows vertically. Here are all the stats of the light: https://fluvalaquatics.com/us/product/plant-spectrum-bluetooth-led-46w-36-46-91-115-cm/

I don't really understand why this is so complicated, as I've heard by many swords are easy plants to grow provided you have fertlizier, root tabs and adequate lighting. I believe I have all three of these boxes checked. The emersed growth argument you made may be it because after the old leaves died off and it undertook that form it never looked like growing upwards again. I'm tempted to try and take one and grow the leaves out of water and see if anything changes. I've heard so many theories from different people, like to turn the light intensity way down cause the plants grow to the light. That never worked for me. Switch fertilizers to seachem flourish for a few months, that also never worked for me. I feel like I'm making a really dumb correctable mistake that will fix things but I just can't seem to find out what it is.

 

[CarloM12]

Hi. I was very recently experiencing a very similar problem in my 65 gallon tank. Turns out it was to do with water flow. The nutrients from the fertiliser just weren’t been circulated around the plants effectively.

I now have the filter outlet (a spray bar in my case), and a power head situated just under the waters surface, pushing the water parallel with the surface, from back to front. The water is the directed down the front glass and along the substrate, then back up the back glass where there is an area of low pressure. This has largely solved my issue and the plants are growing much better.

I used to have a powerhead on there but the current was way too much for these fish and plus I was under the impression you shouldn't break the surface too much cause you lose Co2. I can try it but to me it seems counterproductive due to the reason I just mentioned about the C02. I have my filter outlet pointed close to the surface so there is some circulation. If its not that what else would you think it could be?

 

[BlueJungle]

Honestly, I used to think exactly the same, and I was having terrible problems. None of my plants were growing and algae was beginning to take over I inject CO2 and the last thing I want is for it all to escape right out of the tank and into the atmosphere! I EI dose dry fertilisers, and have my lights on for 7 hours a day.

The only big change I have made, following the advice from someone. Repositioning the filter outlet and powerhead as described above. I have a filter with an output of 2000 LPH and a powerhead with an output of 900 LPH in a 245 litre tank. My fish are fine, including my Angelfish, and the plants are growing much better. My drop checker is still green, so plenty of CO2 in the water too.

I haven’t got the balance just right yet, but I have taken huge steps in the right direction, I believe.

 

[CarloM12]

Honestly, I used to think exactly the same, and I was having terrible problems. None of my plants were growing and algae was beginning to take over I inject CO2 and the last thing I want is for it all to escape right out of the tank and into the atmosphere! I EI dose dry fertilisers, and have my lights on for 7 hours a day.

The only big change I have made, following the advice from someone. Repositioning the filter outlet and powerhead as described above. I have a filter with an output of 2000 LPH and a powerhead with an output of 900 LPH in a 245 litre tank. My fish are fine, including my Angelfish, and the plants are growing much better. My drop checker is still green, so plenty of CO2 in the water too.

I haven’t got the balance just right yet, but I have taken huge steps in the right direction, I believe.View attachment 138970View attachment 138971

Do you think though that for me injecting CO2 could be the difference maker? I’ve never actually done it before and I’m losing hope that’s why I’m asking this lol.

 

[Wills]

I think your issue is you have too much light - the algae on the leaves like Byron said could be a symptom from it but also low growing crypts and swords are an other sign of it. You may be able to achieve better growth with less light intensity but keep the time your tank is on the same. I think Byrons sugestion of root tabs into the swords would be worth a try too.

Co2 could help as it will make the plants photosynthesis faster but not sure if this would result in more leaves or bigger leaves? But moving to a high tech tank is a big move, its expensive, you'll use much more fertiliser and you'll have to monitor the health of your fish too.

Wills

 

[BlueJungle]

No, I think the CO2 injection caused many of my problems, and it’s going to take a long time to get back to where I want to be. With injected CO2 there is a lot less room for error, and things go wrong a lot quicker.

If you can get your plants growing well in a low tech tank, then adding CO2 injection can make a beautiful tank into an amazing tank, but it won’t fix things in a tank with issues, it will just make the problems worse.

 

[Byron]

I'm using the one for low tech tanks which is Thrive C. I understand but it feels like the swords have been frozen in growth for years, the leaves are generating but nothing grows vertically. Here are all the stats of the light: https://fluvalaquatics.com/us/product/plant-spectrum-bluetooth-led-46w-36-46-91-115-cm/

The Thrive C seems OK, I think all the necessary nutrients are listed, and in a low tech system this should be perfectly adequate. The light is good spectrum-wise, at 6500K; this is proven to be within the range that provides the best aquatic plant growth (5000K to 6500K) so OK there. Reducing the duration is a key factor though, that is becoming more obvious.

I don't really understand why this is so complicated, as I've heard by many swords are easy plants to grow provided you have fertlizier, root tabs and adequate lighting. I believe I have all three of these boxes checked. The emersed growth argument you made may be it because after the old leaves died off and it undertook that form it never looked like growing upwards again. I'm tempted to try and take one and grow the leaves out of water and see if anything changes. I've heard so many theories from different people, like to turn the light intensity way down cause the plants grow to the light. That never worked for me. Switch fertilizers to seachem flourish for a few months, that also never worked for me. I feel like I'm making a really dumb correctable mistake that will fix things but I just can't seem to find out what it is.

What substrate tabs are you now using? I may have more on this. Also, you didn't give us the GH of your source (or tank) water.

I used to have a powerhead on there but the current was way too much for these fish and plus I was under the impression you shouldn't break the surface too much cause you lose Co2. I can try it but to me it seems counterproductive due to the reason I just mentioned about the C02. I have my filter outlet pointed close to the surface so there is some circulation. If its not that what else would you think it could be?

There's more to this than CO2, but this is not the problem to begin with. Strong currents are actually detrimental because they move the nutrients that are taken up via the leaves (and not the roots) past the plant's leaves before they can be assimilated. Strong currents are also not usually good for Echinodorus; I killed one or two that were planted in the flow from the canister filter; I moved another and it recovered.

CO2 is not the issue, guaranteed. But to answer your questions, surface disturbance is a debatable factor these days. It is true that the more vigorous the disturbance the more the gas exchange will be, which is why we always advise to increase surface disturbance in hot weather or when raising the temp to treat ich, etc., to bring in oxygen. I aim for some rippling at the filter return, just not excessive, and confined to that perhaps third of the surface. You are dealing with low-tech methods (as I use too) whereas high-tech is a whole different ball game.

Do you think though that for me injecting CO2 could be the difference maker? I’ve never actually done it before and I’m losing hope that’s why I’m asking this lol.

No, this is not the answer. There is more CO2 being produced by the decomposition of the organics in the substrate than most realize, and it is usually sufficient. However, this is where your light factors in again--10 hours is most likely way more than can be balanced. Reduce the duration down to 8 hours, and be prepared to go down to 7 hours. Remember it takes a couple weeks for most changes to become noticeable (if they are working obviously).

Just to show you than what I am suggesting does work, here are a couple of my tanks. I have moderate (many would probably term it "low") light, on 7 hours. I use Flourish Tabs, one next to each of the larger swords, replaced every 3 months. At the time these photos were taken, I was also dosing Flourish Comprehensive Supplement once weekly, on the day following the water change, at at the single dose level recommended on the label. No CO2.

 

[BlueJungle]

I am in total agreement that high tech tanks need to be managed completely different to low tech tanks, and a low tech tank certainly doesn’t need the amount of flow I’ve got in my tank. I was just trying to demonstrate that high flow and surface movement are not detrimental to plants or fish. However I still believe it is important to make sure there is good enough flow to evenly distribute nutrients and CO2 around in a lowctech tank. Movement at the waters surface is also important.

However to succeed with a planted tank it is all about finding the balance, between lighting, CO2 and fertilisers.

 

[StevenF]

You likely have a mobile nutrient deficiency and possibly other issues. But before I go too far please answers as many of these questions as possible:

1. How often you do a water chang and how much water do your replace.
2. How much thrive do you add to your tank and how often.
3. have you texted your water and if so what are numerical readings for Ammonia, nitrite, nitrate, PH, GH and KH.
4. What can you tell use about the water you use. is it tap water, is it hard or soft, are you using RO or distilled water, Do you have a water softener?

Now other than light and CO2(which are probably not your problem) plants need 14 nutrients to grow. I just one is missing plant growth will slow, possibly stop, and there isa good change the plant will die. Now most people assume the fertilizer provides all nutrients. In reality most don't provide all the nutrients. Ifyour fertilizer doesn't have some nutrients than it is up to your water and substrate to prove the rest. But if your water and substrate don't have them a deficiency will develop. Fish can also supply nutrients if the tank is overstocked but based on your photo that is not likely the case.

It’s very annoying to see the same process occur everytime I introduce a new one, the old leaves die off and then I’m left with a short plant with healthy new leaves none taller than 5 inches.

When a leaf dies right after a new one grows it is often a result of the plant removing nutrients from the old leaf to insure the new leaf fully develops. Removing nutrient from the old leaf which often kills it. Fortunately a plant can only move about 7 nutrients. Those nutrients are nitrogen, potassium, Magnesium, phosphate, chlorine (in the form of a non toxic chloride salt) and Molybdenum. In my opinion the most common issue in this list is a magnesium deficiency. Your answers to the list of questions above would help determine the best way to resolve this.

Other issues that might be pressent is that the PH and KH value can reduce the effectiveness of your fertilizer. Aalcium is often not in fertilizers an sometimes is an issue. Many manufactures don't provide enough copper and zinc because it is assumed that your homes water pipes will provide enough. But it you have a home with plastic water pipes or you use RO water, your many not have enough.

I used to have a powerhead on there but the current was way too much for these fish and plus I was under the impression you shouldn't break the surface too much cause you lose Co2.

In most tanks with CO2 systems there is actually slightly more CO2 in the water than in the air. So in that case too much water surface agitation can accelerate the loss CO2. However in a tank without CO2 you actually want more surface agitation help mix air with water to help drive CO2 into the water. CO2 has no effect on a mobile nutrient deficiency.

I've heard so many theories from different people, like to turn the light intensity way down cause the plants grow to the light. That never worked for me. Switch fertilizers to seachem flourish for a few months, that also never worked for me.

If you have a minor nutrient deficiency reducing light intensity will slow plant growth and reduce nutrient consumption. This can help prevent running out of nutrients between water changes. But in my opinion your nutrient deficiency is probably sever enough that lighting changes won't make much of a difference. But it still wouldn't hurt to try.

Also keep in mind that some plants don't grow tall when they get enough light. but if you don't have enough light they will grow tall as they try to get more light. But for that to happen you need good plant growth. But you don't have good plant growth so you would not see it in your tank.

Also Seachem fertilizer is different than Thrive but has some similarities. So I am not surprised it din't work. In fact I tried 4 different fertilizers in my tank and all failed to provide good plant growth. After years of trying I finally decided I had to make my own fertilizer. But i was reluctant to do it because it can be difficult to get right. I was right it is difficult, but my first batch of fertilizer, as imperfect as it was, was vastly better than the 4 others I had purchased.

 

[CarloM12]

1. How often you do a water chang and how much water do your replace.
2. How much thrive do you add to your tank and how often.
3. have you texted your water and if so what are numerical readings for Ammonia, nitrite, nitrate, PH, GH and KH.
4. What can you tell use about the water you use. is it tap water, is it hard or soft, are you using RO or distilled water, Do you have a water softener?

1. 30% once every 10 days.
2. I do the dosing on the bottle which is 1 ml per 5 gallons thats once a week usually.
3. Tank is well cycled so ammonia nitrite stay at 0 and nitrate is probably around 25-30 before the water change usually. PH is 7.5 and I do not have the ability to check KH and GH I can if i bring it to the LFS though.
4. It is tap water with the PH of 7.5. It does have a small amount of ammonia in it but I always dose prime to neutralize it and the system takes care of it rather quickly.

I am just confused what the next steps are because I feel like I have basically tried everything in the last 2 years and still I am in the same boat. A lot of the plants look healthy at least to me they just don't grow up and I dont understand why. Like you mentioned playing around with the light intensity just feels like a waste of time for me and its ineffective its not likely to fix anything. Might even make things worse. I use osmocote root tabs in gelatin capsules in the substrate, would you reccomend switching to an actual pure root tab or is that also not worth it? What are some of the reasons a plant generates new leaves and stays low but doesnt grow up I dont really get it

 

[Colin_T]

What are the tank dimensions (length x width x height)?
What sort of light is on the tank and how many watts is it?

---------------------
You could always get rid of the Anubias because it is a garden plant and doesn't belong in aquariums. Then the swords could have more light and fertiliser. Swordplants produce small leaves in low light or low nutrient conditions.

If you are using a plant fertiliser once a week, chances are the nutrients will be getting used up within a few days due to all the plants. When you add more fertiliser a week later, they suck it all up and the tank runs out a few days later.

You should monitor iron and other nutrient levels in the water and add fertilisers when nutrients have run low or are about to run out. This might need to be done several times a week or once every few weeks depending on the number of plants in the tank. More plants means more fertiliser needed. More plants also means more light needed because they shade each other out.

If you can't test the water for nutrients like iron, then do a big (75%) water change before adding more fertiliser s you dilute any remaining nutrients and don't cause an excess of some nutrients. You can do a big water change twice a week and add fertiliser after each water change and see if that helps.