Does a tank absalutley need a sump?

[MrMashashin]

Well the tank I'm getting, I'm not too sure if it has a sump or not. Is it an absalutely must have item for the tanks, or is it just a (strong?)recomendation?

 

[Navarre]

If you check out the Mineral Mud post in this forum you will see a few piccys of my tanks. My 40 gallon tank doesnt have a sump and it worked extremely well (its been shut down now).

You can run without a sump but if its possible to fit a sump then i recomend one for the folowing reasons.

Heaters, skimmers etc can be placed in here out of the way of hte main tank and thus it doesnt spoil your viewing pleasure.

The extra water will increase the volum of the tank. this means that even though the tank will still hold the same amount of fish for its size, you will have more water than that because its in the sump. this means you have a better buffer for water quality as there is (or should) be more than enough water to handle the mount of fish.

If you have a problematic fish or a critter that you want to identify but dont want to kill it just in case its a hidden treaure then it can be placed in the sump whilst you research it etc.

Hope this helps

 

[MrMashashin]

so, the sump is basicly another tank like a 10g tank that has like a suction and prupultion of water?

 

[Navarre]

Yes. <y tank has 2 holes drilled into it at the top with weirs to control the flow of water down into them. The holes have pipes fitted which run down to the sump and water flows down into it through this.

You then have a return pump that can pump the water backup into the main tank and thus completing the circulation.

Basically you are trying to overflow the main tank ans let th access water run into the sump
Here are a few pictures;
This is a design that allows the pipes to go directly down into the sump which is normally kept underneath.

Bottom Drilled

This is a piccy of my sump. On the far right you can see a compartment. fromhere is a pipe and this is the return pump which will flow the water back to the main tank.

This is how mine is designed. Mini wiers at the top which water flows down into.

This is a similar design to my setup with the exception of the return pump. Mine is seated inside the sump (not ideal as it doesnt help with temperature control) but this design shows a sump thats drilled to allow the pump to sit outside and thus minimalise the heating of water around it.

This is my tank when it was being designed and built. If you look in the top corners of the tank you can see the holes drilled and the wiers around them..

And finally here is a sump design.
The water flows in from the left and passes along the sump and to the far right where the return pump pushes it back up to the main tank.

This is a mineral mud design

Hope this helps

 

[MrMashashin]

wow, thats extremely compicated. Another thing is I dont think this tank I'm getting is drilled. Is there some alternative to this like an external filter tanister like these?

http/www.petco.com/Productlisting.asp?ta...er&Dept_ID=1053

or would a big hob one like this work
http/www.petco.com/product_info.asp?fami...er+Filters&ct3=
or this one
http/www.petco.com/product_info.asp?fami...er+Filters&ct3=
(note: I know this one is a 100g filter, I chose it to be that just for extra precaution)

Would sponge filters also be ok for the clean up crew if they cant find food around or should I just leave the sponge filters out of this?

 

[Navarre]

I dont know much about the last 2 filters buti use a fluval myself as a sort of loose refugium In the fluval i keep sponges but leave the cannister as empty as possible to allow pods to breed and grow in safety. Sea squirts also seem to like the environment here.

You can use an external as I do recomend one as its great for being able to add material like Rowaphos or carbon should the tank need any form of treatment. And of course it also increases the water flow in the tank which is always agood thing!

 

[chkltcow]

I had debated doing a sump for my 20g nano, and eventually put it in a place where I couldn't physically fit a sump anyway. I couldn't drill mine because it's tempered glass, so I had looked at the hang on overflow boxes. They siphon the water down to a sump, and then you have to find a way to return it back up top like Navarre's design.

This is obviously not the only place to buy them, but I like that they give you a diagram of what they look like and an idea of how they work:

http/www.marinedepot.com/aquarium_overfl...r.asp?ast=&key=

Hit your LFS and look around, see if they have any tanks with an overflow box on them. One of the tanks at my LFS has one on it just as a demo of how they work so he can show people.

 

[Def]

Follow up question, is a 10g (UK) a large enough sump tank for a 50g (UK) main tank?

If not, what's the appropriate size? (Also, what's the right size for a miracle mud tank?)

I'm just trying to figure out space - the tank we'll buy will be a proper cabinet type, so I might have to do some DIY on the base/shelving to make some room.

 

[Navarre]

There is no specific size sump for a tank. I know of a person that has a 40 gallon tank and a 200 gallon sump!
What is important is that you have enough room for the pieces that will be used n the sump.

If you look at my MM sump design, if we start from the left you will see a long thinn compartment. This houses bioballs. It helps break noise and allows air into the tank. It also help with filtration and even though i am not keen on bioballs, the manufacturers recomend using them so i have.

After this the water passes under the glass compartment and over the next glass wall into the main part of the sump area. This is where the mud is kept along with the alges. The level of the sump will also remain constant with this wall as its where the water will flow in from.

The water then flows over the nex t wall, under the folloing wall and into the return section of the sump. The reason for this thin section of water flow between the main sump area and the rturn section is to stop algea from growing and straying into the rturn area and thus clogging up the pump.

Of course you dont have to have the pump inside the sump. It could be drilled at the bottom and the pump sit outside. This saves room in the sump and alows it to be smaller if needed.

The amount of Mud you need is dependant on the size of system of course but if you were to use the Mineral mud brand bname then a full bottle will be more than enough. Just make sure the mud is about 2 inches deep maximum. Another good way of extraction in a confined space is to use Mangroves. You can float these in the water in the sump and they will also extract. Just keep the leaves pruned and the plants will not goutgrow the sump. These plants will also work alongside macro algeas too.

Lastly, you dont even need a tank to make a sump. Some people use a water storage unit (the black plastic ones that are usually found in lofts.) This has the advantage of being able to drill with ease so modifications can be made. Doesnt look as pretty of course but then eagain sumps arent ment too

 

[MrMashashin]

OK! I have an idea for a sump.

Take your main tank

Take a HOB (hang on back) filter and put it on the main and "sump" tank

Then run tubes going to each

Plug them in and they return and take water from eachother. Plus a no return valve so if the power goes out they doing drain the tank onto the floor.

Sorry if my drawing are bad. Paint isn't limitless you know lol.

So here's a summary.

Take a 10g tank and 2 10-20g HOB filters and run tubes going from one to the other. Start the two tanks and hey take water from eachother so there is a limitless flow.

Will it (could it) work?

 

[Navarre]

The diagram looks like you have 2 pumps, 1 pumping into the main tank from the sump and the other pumping from the maintank to the sump?

If this is so thenI dont recomend it as it is impossible to get both pumps moving the exact same amount of water (even if they are identical pumps).

If you consider that the pump in the sump has to send water against gravity then this will reduce flow, the pump above works opposite and has an easier job of pushing water into the sump and thus you will slowly be filling the sump and draining the tank. This is why tanks are drilled with wiers etc so that gravity does the work and the pump in the sump just throws it back up. if the sump pump fails then the water in the main tank simply falls to the level of the wier then stops (thus stopping you sump from overflowing). With the gravity method you can always be sure that the water returning to the sump is the same as the water being pumped into the tank.

 

[MrMashashin]

Wait! I just wound these things on petco.com. They control the ammount of watter being sucked up, thus working vice versa. Would it work then if one of those were installed?

 

[Navarre]

I wouldnt recomend realying on pumps to work in syncronsiation.
You can get overlfows that hang on the side of the tank, far more reliable and only uses a single pump from the sump to pump water back, the rest is run with a syphon to draw water to the sump. It is still capable of going worng but i would rather try this than fiddle with pumping water. )

 

[MrMashashin]

so what do these overflow things look like?

 

[chkltcow]

so what do these overflow things look like?

Look at the link I posted earlier

http/www.marinedepot.com/aquarium_overfl...r.asp?ast=&key=