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Do not use anti-biotics unless you know what the problem is.
- Thread starter Colin_T
- Start date
L
Let me get it real quick...
Staying on the "fish only" topic... No meds used here at all; I have been keeping fish for decades and the best medication I've found is simply keeping up with water changes, not overfeeding and proper filtering. I'm sure meds have their place in aquatic life, but I truly believe once we feel a fish needs heavy meds, it's probably too late. So, prevention is the key to avoid most issues with fish.
Silvermist80
Fish Fanatic
So I am a trained Vet Tech and I had to learn extensively about anti-biotics. They do have a place in medicine, but with that being said, the real danger with them comes from NOT FINISHING THE FULL TREATMENT.
Colin is correct, there is Gram Negative and Gram Positive bacteria. Even as humans, the doctor doesn't take a sample from where you have the infection, prepare a petri dish to single out the bacteria that's causing the problem. Then they would grow that bacteria all over one petri dish, use a little tool to drop a small paper disc with various types of antibiotics drugs, and whichever paper disc clears the most bacteria around it, wins. Your Physician doesn't do this because it'd be time consuming and expensive. Instead, they go by what bacteria would MOST LIKELY be invading your system where you have the issue and go with that. Plus Enteric bacteria (in your digestive system) take different antibiotics than your skin. Long story short, this is what you have to do.... go by the symptoms and target what MOST LIKELY is attacking your fish. Please please please don't stop the treatment early, because that is when you create tolerances. The bacteria left that you neglected to kill will mutate to be resistant to that antibiotic and it is now worthless. This is how "super bugs" are created. So by all means, use antibiotics if that is what is called for to cure your fish, but absolutely make sure you follow the directions strictly! Also remember that antibiotics can kill good bacteria as well as bad, so only use if you've identified the problem correctly, as Colin has said.
Colin is correct, there is Gram Negative and Gram Positive bacteria. Even as humans, the doctor doesn't take a sample from where you have the infection, prepare a petri dish to single out the bacteria that's causing the problem. Then they would grow that bacteria all over one petri dish, use a little tool to drop a small paper disc with various types of antibiotics drugs, and whichever paper disc clears the most bacteria around it, wins. Your Physician doesn't do this because it'd be time consuming and expensive. Instead, they go by what bacteria would MOST LIKELY be invading your system where you have the issue and go with that. Plus Enteric bacteria (in your digestive system) take different antibiotics than your skin. Long story short, this is what you have to do.... go by the symptoms and target what MOST LIKELY is attacking your fish. Please please please don't stop the treatment early, because that is when you create tolerances. The bacteria left that you neglected to kill will mutate to be resistant to that antibiotic and it is now worthless. This is how "super bugs" are created. So by all means, use antibiotics if that is what is called for to cure your fish, but absolutely make sure you follow the directions strictly! Also remember that antibiotics can kill good bacteria as well as bad, so only use if you've identified the problem correctly, as Colin has said.
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DoubleDutch
Fish Gatherer
Thanks for adding this.So I am a trained Vet Tech and I had to learn extensively about anti-biotics. They do have a place in medicine, but with that being said, the real danger with them comes from NOT FINISHING THE FULL TREATMENT.
Colin is correct, there is Gram Negative and Gram Positive bacteria. Even as humans, the doctor doesn't take a sample from where you have the infection, prepare a petri dish to single out the bacteria that's causing the problem. Then they would grow that bacteria all over one petri dish, use a little tool to drop a small paper disc with various types of antibiotics drugs, and whichever paper disc clears the most bacteria around it, wins. Your Physician doesn't do this because it'd be time consuming and expensive. Instead, they go by what bacteria would MOST LIKELY be invading your system where you have the issue and go with that. Plus Enteric bacteria (in your digestive system) take different antibiotics than your skin. Long story short, this is what you have to do.... go by the symptoms and target what MOST LIKELY is attacking your fish. Please please please don't stop the treatment early, because that is when you create tolerances. The bacteria left that you neglected to kill will mutate to be resistant to that antibiotic and it is now worthless. This is how "super bugs" are created. So by all means, use antibiotics if that is what is called for to cure your fish, but absolutely make sure you follow the directions strictly! Also remember that antibiotics can kill good bacteria as well as bad, so only use if you've identified the problem correctly, as Colin has said.
I took a look at malachite green as a carcinogen. It caused thyroid cancer in rats who ate it, and is banned for all food fish. If you plan to eat your tank inhabitants, cure ich with heat. It is not listed for skin contact. Apparently, the pulp and paper mill a few km down the road uses tons of it in its processing, so if it ever kills me, I doubt it'll be from aquarium keeping.
I feel bad that Colin has been purged and isn't here to defend his valuable post, but data tells me he over reacted on that point. Acriflavene, used to kill velvet (as is formaldehyde/formalin) is also a long term carcinogen.
None of these are antibiotics. If I buy fish that are diseased, I accept that I lose them. I put a post up about how to purchase fish a few weeks ago to help out on that front. I'll keep my crusty old bottles of malachite green and methelyne blue at the ready for every few years when a new fish comes in with ich, or for when velvet flares up. Prazi handles white gutworms, although buying it here isn't legal. I know how to handle nematodes, but more importantly, how to generally avoid them. Bacterial infections? Unless a fish is newly arrived or very old, they are my fault and I have to adjust my maintenance if they appear.
I feel bad that Colin has been purged and isn't here to defend his valuable post, but data tells me he over reacted on that point. Acriflavene, used to kill velvet (as is formaldehyde/formalin) is also a long term carcinogen.
None of these are antibiotics. If I buy fish that are diseased, I accept that I lose them. I put a post up about how to purchase fish a few weeks ago to help out on that front. I'll keep my crusty old bottles of malachite green and methelyne blue at the ready for every few years when a new fish comes in with ich, or for when velvet flares up. Prazi handles white gutworms, although buying it here isn't legal. I know how to handle nematodes, but more importantly, how to generally avoid them. Bacterial infections? Unless a fish is newly arrived or very old, they are my fault and I have to adjust my maintenance if they appear.
One issue is that "x" medicine may (I say "may") be safe for one species of fish, but deadly for another. Most aquarists have community tanks, so this becomes crucial. There is no value in using something like malachite green if characins are in the tank, even if it may (again, "may") be "safe" for cories. About a decade ago I was frequently in communication with a trained biologist I had met on another forum, and we were discussing treatments for an unknown issue killing my fish a couple every day. I mentioned malachite green and she said never use this with characins. This group of fish has a heightened sensitivity to medications--on reason so many of these products even recommend use at half strength for these fish. Depends upon the issue obviously, something not easy to discern unfortunately, but safer treatments exist.
I have used malachite green and methylene blue with fungus on cories, but not in the way most would assume. These substances should absolutely never be added to a tank with fish. They can however be used to spot treat fungus on a fish, including a cory. The spot of fungus on the pectoral fin spine of a cory is sometimes seen, and I killed this within seconds by netting the cory, holding it just at the water surface with the fungus side uppermost, and using a Q-tip to dab the fungus with pure methylene blue or malachite green. Then release the fish. Fungus turned blue (or green), died and fell off. Fish lived for years. I offered this solution once on CorydorasWorld and Ian Fuller agreed it was safe and effective. The fish swimming around in these drugs is anything but safe.
These two dyes are not antibiotics, but the advice remains the same--do not use them ever unless they are unquestionably the most effective for the issue, and they are then the safest.
I have used malachite green and methylene blue with fungus on cories, but not in the way most would assume. These substances should absolutely never be added to a tank with fish. They can however be used to spot treat fungus on a fish, including a cory. The spot of fungus on the pectoral fin spine of a cory is sometimes seen, and I killed this within seconds by netting the cory, holding it just at the water surface with the fungus side uppermost, and using a Q-tip to dab the fungus with pure methylene blue or malachite green. Then release the fish. Fungus turned blue (or green), died and fell off. Fish lived for years. I offered this solution once on CorydorasWorld and Ian Fuller agreed it was safe and effective. The fish swimming around in these drugs is anything but safe.
These two dyes are not antibiotics, but the advice remains the same--do not use them ever unless they are unquestionably the most effective for the issue, and they are then the safest.
We end up in a circle. I have spoken with fisheries vets who said medicinal dyes with tetras had to be monitored, but were safe with reasonable dosage precautions. My post was mainly that I disagreed with the presentation of malachite green as a terrible carcinogen, without mention of the fact you have to eat your fish over a period to even be at risk.
I've used an old trick from the days of Dr Innes for spot infections- a drop of betadine (mainly iodine) was a desperation trick I used and have used since with good results. It would be fatal on an entire tank, but did the job with small wounds.
There's no winning - all the treatments are designed to kill a parasite swimming in the tank, and they all have side effects. Things that kill organisms do. Salt burns the skin to produce slime, heat can kill some species, meds can kill others. With no treatment, ich kills its hosts in an aquarium. It reinforces the point we agree on - that you have to be clear on why you are using a med, or a method.
I've used an old trick from the days of Dr Innes for spot infections- a drop of betadine (mainly iodine) was a desperation trick I used and have used since with good results. It would be fatal on an entire tank, but did the job with small wounds.
There's no winning - all the treatments are designed to kill a parasite swimming in the tank, and they all have side effects. Things that kill organisms do. Salt burns the skin to produce slime, heat can kill some species, meds can kill others. With no treatment, ich kills its hosts in an aquarium. It reinforces the point we agree on - that you have to be clear on why you are using a med, or a method.
Alice B
Fish Herder
I think that as long as the pet trade is distributing diseases and parasites with fish meds will be occasionally needed. I always use a quarantine tank. I never did dose that molly for worms, the female is fine, male and baby were not, may have been a genetic disorder. But I will always keep some meds on hand. And I have not fixed a dog injury with a water change yet. You can throw me off the forum if needed. I never use antibiotics unnecessarily, including on me, but I am glad they exist.
Dogs and humans aren't that different, and many meds work on both species. My old dog has had antibiotics a few times, and so have I. We're both here because of them. That's not the issue.
We have vets and doctors. Fish vets? I moved from a city of 3 million, and there wasn't one practicing. I know people trained for the fish farming industry, but they don't live in large cities and consult on platys. Hobbyists have a long history of shotgunning random antibiotics at infections, usually for around 3 days if 10 are needed. Read here for a few months and the 'my fish has a purple spot and I am using Ich destroyer, kanamycin, salt and tetracyclene on it. The fish is a purple spotted purplishfish" postings pile up. By nature, we want to help sick creatures, and we don't all have the opportunity to learn to do it right. We kill with kindness.
We kill more fish with poor medication use than we save.
I agree we need meds. Success rates with fish antibiotics are not great, and very few of us, myself included, are qualified to know how to use the precision tools antibiotics are. I am glad they're banned here. Fish are incredibly complex creatures, and we have fewer meds to treat them than a medieval monk had to treat the plague. Imagine human lives if all we had were dewormers and killers of skin parasites?
We're forced to prevention, and water changes to avoid trouble. Newly arrived fish have diseases we can't prevent, and there, we are simply powerless. Maybe we can get off our duffs and re-create the kind of healthy fish distribution networks physically meeting aquarium clubs used to have. They've largely collapsed in the past 20 years, when they could have been growing.
We have vets and doctors. Fish vets? I moved from a city of 3 million, and there wasn't one practicing. I know people trained for the fish farming industry, but they don't live in large cities and consult on platys. Hobbyists have a long history of shotgunning random antibiotics at infections, usually for around 3 days if 10 are needed. Read here for a few months and the 'my fish has a purple spot and I am using Ich destroyer, kanamycin, salt and tetracyclene on it. The fish is a purple spotted purplishfish" postings pile up. By nature, we want to help sick creatures, and we don't all have the opportunity to learn to do it right. We kill with kindness.
We kill more fish with poor medication use than we save.
I agree we need meds. Success rates with fish antibiotics are not great, and very few of us, myself included, are qualified to know how to use the precision tools antibiotics are. I am glad they're banned here. Fish are incredibly complex creatures, and we have fewer meds to treat them than a medieval monk had to treat the plague. Imagine human lives if all we had were dewormers and killers of skin parasites?
We're forced to prevention, and water changes to avoid trouble. Newly arrived fish have diseases we can't prevent, and there, we are simply powerless. Maybe we can get off our duffs and re-create the kind of healthy fish distribution networks physically meeting aquarium clubs used to have. They've largely collapsed in the past 20 years, when they could have been growing.
DoubleDutch
Fish Gatherer
In fact fish are the best animals to bring the aquabrands profits. Meds (including antibiotics) are used by people who don't have any knowledge about them nor the usage. In case fish die "we were too late" and when fish recover it was the med.
The brands are only accountable for the successtory.
Overhere antibiotics are only available on prescription by a vet and therefor are hardly ever used for fish. To be honest I don't notice any difference in succes or fail in treatment in Europe vs America. That is quite remarkable to me and proofs me they aren't that effective as suggested and we should be very careful with (over and mis) use.
Exact the reason why they are more effective for humans and other mamals. Prescription by a vet !
The brands are only accountable for the successtory.
Overhere antibiotics are only available on prescription by a vet and therefor are hardly ever used for fish. To be honest I don't notice any difference in succes or fail in treatment in Europe vs America. That is quite remarkable to me and proofs me they aren't that effective as suggested and we should be very careful with (over and mis) use.
Exact the reason why they are more effective for humans and other mamals. Prescription by a vet !
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Question about antibiotics. Wouldn't an antibiotic also kill the beneficial bacteria in an aquarium?
Alice B
Fish Herder
yes, usually
I'll go as far as saying, "Don't use any meds" unless, if you want to put the infected fish in a separate tank with meds. Most diseases occur from lack of maintenance or an addition of a new fish to the tank, other than that, frequent water changes and not over feeding will let you have a healthy tank.
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