Do I Need Co2?

[Cro-Baller]

OK I am getting a smaller tank to grow some plants in to transfer to my Rio 240 as part of a full make over. So do I need to use Co2 in the small tank? I won't have any fish in it (except on the day of make over but then it will have clean water etc) so I will heavily fertilise it. Will I need Co2 in the Rio 240 once it's all planted up or can I get away with just ferts?

 

[three-fingers]

You need to start thinking of CO2 as a fert itself .

Lot's of plants can thrive with limited amounts of CO2 (just stay away of CO2 demanding species if you aren't sure how much CO2 is in your tank).

But with injected CO2, plants will grow much faster, and it will be much easier to grow demanding species.

More info on the tank is needed to advise on whether its worth buying a pressurised CO2 unit.

Tank size along with lighting, species of plants you intend to grow, flow rate of filters and/or powerheads.

Another important thing is what ferts you are using.

Here's an old post I wrote: http/www.fishforums.net/index.php?s=&amp...t&p=2351877

 

[Cro-Baller]

You need to start thinking of CO2 as a fert itself .

Lot's of plants can thrive with limited amounts of CO2 (just stay away of CO2 demanding species if you aren't sure how much CO2 is in your tank).

But with injected CO2, plants will grow much faster, and it will be much easier to grow demanding species.

More info on the tank is needed to advise on whether its worth buying a pressurised CO2 unit.

Tank size along with lighting, species of plants you intend to grow, flow rate of filters and/or powerheads.

Another important thing is what ferts you are using.

Here's an old post I wrote: [URL="http/www.fishforums.net/index.php?s=&amp...t&p=2351877"]http/www.fishforums.net/index.php?s=&amp...t&p=2351877[/URL]

Tank size = Juwel Rio 240L (empty)
Lighting = 1 X T8 Juwel Day light & 1 X T8 Juwel Warm Light both fitted with Juwel reflectors and all bought new less than a week ago.
Species of plants = I have a few Anubias tied to bogwood plus two others that I don't remember the names of, one in the middle tied to bogwood and the other on the left planted in the substrate.

Species I intend to grow = I have bought 5 Moss balls http/cgi.ebay.co.uk/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?Vie...em=290312521511
1 Blyxa http/www.fishforums.net/index.php?showtopic=289256
1 tennis ball size java moss http/www.fishforums.net/index.php?showtopic=288363
I'd like some advice on what else to get. The Java moss is going to be planted on my new piece of bogwood, a big lump, not a rooty kind. I want to get a rooty piece of bogwood for the other side of the tank.
Filters = I currently have a Fluval 104 and a Fluval 304 both of which are going to be replaced with Eheim 2071's. I will change the Fluval 104 with a Eheim 2071 in about a week, the 304 will be replaced in about 6 - 8 weeks after that.
Ferts = Flourish Excel. I want to know what substrate to get for the tank when I do the full makeover and what ferts to use also. I am using the Flourish Excel at present to keep the current plants going.

So far I have made a few noob mistakes getting into fish keeping, I would like to make up for this and go on to the next step properly.

 

[three-fingers]

The only relatively demanding plant you have mentioned is Blyxa.

You never mentioned what power your lights have, but it's a Rio 180 so that means you have 2 x 30W T8 tubes. So 1.25 WPG of T8 lighting without reflectors, and the tank has a decent depth.

That's not a lot of light, but may be OK for the Blyxa as long as all the other conditions (ferts, carbon and flowrate) are OK.

You are providing no other ferts apart from carbon with the excel though, I recommend you read the link I provided on plant ferts .

What will the 304 be replaced with?

Look at the flowrate of the intended filters and aim for 10x the tanks volume per hour.

This is just a guideline to ensure the tank has a good flow of water in all areas to stop tiny localised pockets of ammonia appearing which would encourage algae.

If they filters don't make up 10x, then just add a powerhead or two to make up the rest of the flowrate.

So for best results, bump up the flowrate as I said above, and get ferts right. Avoid the Blyxa and go for plants that are a little less demanding/can deal with lower light levels.

I would also recommend adding reflectors to lights.

Pressurised CO2 would help provided you can do all of the things above, and if you intend on getting Blyxa, would be much preferred (as Blyxa has been known to react badly to excel).

 

[Cro-Baller]

The only relatively demanding plant you have mentioned is Blyxa.

You never mentioned what power your lights have, but it's a Rio 180 so that means you have 2 x 30W T8 tubes. So 1.25 WPG of T8 lighting without reflectors, and the tank has a decent depth.

That's not a lot of light, but may be OK for the Blyxa as long as all the other conditions (ferts, carbon and flowrate) are OK.

The tank is a Rio 240, the lights are 2 X 38W and they both have reflectors fitted.

You are providing no other ferts apart from carbon with the excel though, I recommend you read the link I provided on plant ferts .

Will read it tonight.

What will the 304 be replaced with?

Both filters are being replaced with Eheim 2071's, I'm changing the 104 first and giving it 6 - 8 weeks to get nicely cycled then I'll replace the 304 with a 2071 also.

Look at the flowrate of the intended filters and aim for 10x the tanks volume per hour.

The Eheims have an output of 950 l/h according to their web site, I will be having 2 of them.

This is just a guideline to ensure the tank has a good flow of water in all areas to stop tiny localised pockets of ammonia appearing which would encourage algae.

If they filters don't make up 10x, then just add a powerhead or two to make up the rest of the flowrate.

Would I need power heads once I've got the above filters?

 

[three-fingers]

The tank is a Rio 240, the lights are 2 X 38W and they both have reflectors fitted.

Sorry, silly me a misread. Will work out as about the same amount of light .

The Eheims have an output of 950 l/h according to their web site, I will be having 2 of them.
Would I need power heads once I've got the above filters?

Ideally yes, you'll want a powerhead of around 500 l/h on top of that and you should be good, just position all the outputs to get a very even flowrate throughout the tank.

This is why Hydor powerheads and spraybars are so good .

 

[Cro-Baller]

The tank is a Rio 240, the lights are 2 X 38W and they both have reflectors fitted.

Sorry, silly me a misread. Will work out as about the same amount of light .

The Eheims have an output of 950 l/h according to their web site, I will be having 2 of them.
Would I need power heads once I've got the above filters?

Ideally yes, you'll want a powerhead of around 500 l/h on top of that and you should be good, just position all the outputs to get a very even flowrate throughout the tank.

This is why Hydor powerheads and spraybars are so good .

So I should be OK light wise then, maybe upgrade to T5's later?

I've been looking at powerheads today and all of them seem lower than what the filter is capable of. Do I need to get a pump as well then?

 

[three-fingers]

So I should be OK light wise then, maybe upgrade to T5's later?

I've been looking at powerheads today and all of them seem lower than what the filter is capable of. Do I need to get a pump as well then?

Light wise you'll be fine as long as you chose your plants right. If you wanted a better growth you could add another T8 tube in there.
Remember, the higher the lighting, the higher demands plants make on CO2, so as a general rule stay under 2WPG if you don't want to get a pressurised CO2 kit. You could add more than 2WPG if you wanted but would have to start letting plants block the light and maybe get some floating plants due to the increased change of algae.

The idea with the extra pumps is to ensure the tank has a minimum rated 10x turnovers per hour.

Due to all the media and manufacturers being enthusiastic about their ratings, it's best not to rely solely on externals unless you are providing more than 10x with them.

Your tank is 240L, so you would need a rated total of 2400l/h and your two new Eheims only give you a maximum of 1900l/h (much less in reality).
It's not only just about the flowrate either, its important you spread the flowrate out so it doesn't snap plants, and direct it all over the tank so there are no dead spots.

Flowrate isnt the most important thing, many people run excellent planted tanks with a very low flowrate.
But it really does help a lot with fighting off algae IME, and it's highly recommended on plated forums now.
Given the cheap cost of basic powerheads and the benefits they give, they are well worth it. A great quality circulation pump would be around £20, basic ones can be found for around £10.
They also improve filtration as more waste is circulated round the tank into the filters intake.

 

[Cro-Baller]

I've been looking at powerheads today and all of them seem lower than what the filter is capable of. Do I need to get a pump as well then?

Oops, got the hang of what they are and what they do now.

I'm going to try and find 2 X 250 l/h powerheads if possible, should disturb the fish less and give a more even flow rate cover across the tank. Sound good?

 

[three-fingers]

Sounds great, position them at different ends in areas that would otherwise have a low flow for best results .

Don't worry about there being too much flowrate, I have over 20x turnover in my shrimp tank and have seen higher with no problems .

If it's around the same price to buy two 500l/h powerheads- go for it!

 

[Cro-Baller]

So I should be OK light wise then, maybe upgrade to T5's later?

I've been looking at powerheads today and all of them seem lower than what the filter is capable of. Do I need to get a pump as well then?

Light wise you'll be fine as long as you chose your plants right. If you wanted a better growth you could add another T8 tube in there.
Remember, the higher the lighting, the higher demands plants make on CO2, so as a general rule stay under 2WPG if you don't want to get a pressurised CO2 kit. You could add more than 2WPG if you wanted but would have to start letting plants block the light and maybe get some floating plants due to the increased change of algae.

The idea with the extra pumps is to ensure the tank has a minimum rated 10x turnovers per hour.

Due to all the media and manufacturers being enthusiastic about their ratings, it's best not to rely solely on externals unless you are providing more than 10x with them.

Your tank is 240L, so you would need a rated total of 2400l/h and your two new Eheims only give you a maximum of 1900l/h (much less in reality).
It's not only just about the flowrate either, its important you spread the flowrate out so it doesn't snap plants, and direct it all over the tank so there are no dead spots.

Flowrate isnt the most important thing, many people run excellent planted tanks with a very low flowrate.
But it really does help a lot with fighting off algae IME, and it's highly recommended on plated forums now.
Given the cheap cost of basic powerheads and the benefits they give, they are well worth it. A great quality circulation pump would be around £20, basic ones can be found for around £10.
They also improve filtration as more waste is circulated round the tank into the filters intake.

Thanks for all the info, you've been extremely helpful.

I've just ordered the first Eheim and I'm going to look at smaller tanks and plants this weekend, so hopefully I'll start a diary on the planted tank in a month or so once the plants have had time to get established in the small tank ready for transfer.