Do I Follow Lfs Advice?

[Emmamonkey]

Hiya, I'm just starting my tropical tank again after making a complete hash of it the first time round. I have a 60 litre tank and will be getting a few danios tomorrow as my first "inmates", and once my tank's matured and settled I really want some dwarf gouramis and angels, but figured with my tank size it wouldn't be advisable.
Went to my LFS this am and they said a pair of dwarfs and 4 angels would be fine, and when they get a bit big for the tank they'd exchange them for smaller ones... Sounds great to me, but figured I should check with the unbiased experts (you guys) as LFS's obviously want to sell sell sell.
Appreciate any input here.

 

[HM Dragon Devil]

Hi. Have you considered a fishless cycle? A fish-in cycle requires a lot of time and you must be prepared to change water religiously (every day) with a tap water conditioner etc until your aquarium has fully cycled. I don't think buying a fish and having to exchange at a later date is a good idea either, you should start out with fish you intend to keep suitable for your aquarium.

Check out the Beginners Resource Center for fishless cycle and fish-in cycle.

Dean.

 

[Emmamonkey]

I've done the fish less cycle, my pH is high but I just put some proper pH 7.0 in this morning so it'll be good to go tomorrow with my first fish.
Would you say the dwarf gourami pair would be ok? I had neon tetras, white tetras and Platy's in my last attempt, was really looking for something different this time that would stand out more, and bring a little activity to the tank. I found the tetras didn't shoal because of the tank's smaller size and the Platy's just weren't very active.
I've spent hours over the past wks during the cycling sifting through the Internet trying to decide on a plan, thought this morning I may have cracked it but guess not!

 

[CezzaXV]

I'm assuming it was the LFS who said the pH was too high? Unless you've got a pH approaching 9, I wouldn't consider it too high. In all honesty, a stable pH is much more important than what would normally be considered a "correct one". Those pH altering products will get it to 7 for a while, and then it'll start swinging back towards its natural pH and your fish may suffer pH shock.

I wouldn't buy fish which aren't suitable for your tank at adult size. Fish naturally put out hormones into the water to stop themselves growing past a certain size and keeping them in a tank that's too small can stunt their growth, even if you plan on moving them to a bigger tank later on.

 

[Wills]

To be honest I think your LFS is trying to make money from you. Selling you products you dont need and unsuitable fish to constantly get money in. Though they may swap your large Angels for small ones they will then be able to sell on those 4 for more money all while you have fed and raised them.

I know you say you have cycled your tank but what the shop will have told you is not proper cycling a proper cycle takes about 5 or 6 weeks and thats without fish if you do it fish less

Have a read in here
http/www.fishforums.net/index.php?/topic/277264-beginners-resource-center/

And have a read of this
http/www.fishforums.net/index.php?/topic/113861-fishless-cycling/ <---- thats fishless cycling which I would reccomend

And this
http/www.fishforums.net/index.php?/topic/224306-fish-in-cycling/ <----- thats fish in cycling which your fish shop is about to plunge you into.


The way they make you buy fish to start a tank and then take them back for the fish you want is a really old trick and pretty ruthless... If this shops fish are healthy fair enough stick with them but if their fish are questionable quality and the bad advice I would perhaps ask around for some other shops.

I am in a situation where I am surrounded by shops like this but the fish are reasonably healthy so dont object to buying there I just have to be educated before I purchase it.

Wills

 

[elmo666]

Not sure on this one. The lfs's "advice" may have been given in a way as to accomodate what you want. Then again, and unfortunately we don't know, they could have been advising you to get fish that are not suitable for your chosen set-up. Did you choose the ph 7 or was that on advice? Lots on here about ph, and as already said stability is far more important than trying to maintain a theoritcal ideal. Right, that said, the first thing that needs to be tested before ANY set-up is planned is the local tap water, namely for ph and nitrates. That gives you a good starting point in deciding what to keep. If the nitrates are higher in the tap water than your tank then that needs to be addressed prior to water changes, tho alot more is gained from changes other than diluting nitrates. The next question is to decide how much time and effort you want to put into your tank. The parameters of the local water can be played with using all manner of things from bottled additives to RO water. I filtered my tap water using a triple resin filter which dealt with metals, minerals, nitrates and phosphates. I kept discus and managed quite easily to adjust the ph as, after the above filtering it didn't have much kh or gh. Some keepers prefer an easy life and a less hands on approachSo, in answer to your question, you need to think about how you present yourself as a customer, if your keen to keep a certain fish then it is good business practice to try and accomodate you, otherwise businees is lost. I don't beleive any lfs will give you bad advice as such, maybe just not give you the "best" in a given situation. Good luck with your new venture.

 

[drobbyb]

Keep in mind, LFS are in business to make money. They are stores that have fish. They don't really make money on the fish, they make money on the supplies. I have received quite a lot of bad advice from LFS. Now that I know what bad advice is and what good advice is, it's surprising how much bad advice is given on confidence to new fish keepers. That isn't to say that all LFS give bad advice. Some do give good advice, but I would advise any fish keeper to do their research FIRST before buying.

I can't speak of other forums and sites out there on the internet but this forum in particular is about the fish and the people who keep them, and about helping those people. Agreed, sometimes a bit of bad advice does get through, but this is a discussion forum. Give it a bit of time and someone with experience will come along give some excellent advice.

 

[tmiller]

I can't speak of other forums and sites out there on the internet but this forum in particular is about the fish and the people who keep them, and about helping those people. Agreed, sometimes a bit of bad advice does get through, but this is a discussion forum. Give it a bit of time and someone with experience will come along give some excellent advice

^^ this is golden

All advise is weighted and deserves a bit of further research.. ALWAYS

Sadly many Aquariums are a impulse buy with most thought given to " those are cool looking fish" rather than "how will i best provide for my pets".

Better late than never, I have seen stellar results from advice from these fine folk here

 

[creeker]

I've got to disagree with the statement "they don't really make money on the fish." I was a wholesaler to the fish shops. The average markup they did on the fish was 3x cost. Some of the bigger, more expensive fish they marked up only 2 1/2 times. Still, I say that is really making money on the fish.

 

[tmiller]

Must remember overhead.. electric bills, rent, employs, not to mention loss due to death(s)..
A 300% markup is not uncommon in most small business..
but yes, If they Did not make a profit you wouldn't have a LFS and your choices would be fewer

 

[drobbyb]

It is true they do a 300% markup on cost. However when you factor in the overhead (food, losses, meds, accidents, customers, etc) and other misc costs they break even on livestock most of the time. I worked for 3 LFS and knew several LFS owners very well. Of course I'm speaking of your small time types, not your big time chains like Petsmart and the like. They can afford to buy neon tetras by the ten thousands and get them for almost nothing. Your average small time pet shop can only buy 150 and can't get them so cheap.

 

[N0body Of The Goat]

Most common danios like Zebra/Leopard are far too active for a typical 60l tank with dimensions close to 60x30x30cm, they need at least a 3-fooot tank but I prefer to see them in a 4-footer, they can go end to end in the blink of an eye... even against a "strong current" which they love.

Angelfish need 18cm of actual water depth (not fresh air or gravel/sand on the tank floor) to prevent growth stunting, plus unbonded Angels should always be stocked as a 6+ group to spread aggression (when a pair forms then the excess can be rehomed/removed to another tank).

If not stocked as a singleton, it is far safeer to add a 3+ group of gourami to a tank, containing one male in the group. These fish can get quite fiesty with conspecifics!

As aleady said, products that play with adjusting the pH of your water often don't work and result in wild swings in the water chemistry, which is not good for the fish... Stability is far better. Many fish will cope with tap water whatever its pH or hardness, but the likelihood of breeding is not great if your water is very different to where the wild specimens originate.