Do hillstream loaches actually need river biotopes?

[CherryBerry670]

So, I’m thinking of getting three hillstream loaches for my 75 gallon. Aquarium Co-Op and Girl Talks Fish both say they basically love any environment and just breed everywhere. Every other fish website says they need well-oxygenated water, cold water, and a high flow. While I plan to put a few air stones in the 75, in no way do I plan to have high flow for them, and it’s a tropical tank, with temps in the 74-77 range for all the fish. Aquarium Co-Op is usually on the money about fish care, but that seems off. Can they go in my tank?

 

[sharkweek178]

I've never kept them. But from what I understand, their bodies are built for a high flow environment.
Seriously Fish says that the water should turnover 15-20 times an hour. And also since they feed on biofilm and need stable water conditions, they should only be added to a mature tank.

 

[CherryBerry670]

Ah, crap, there go my stingray dreams. Alright, I guess.

 

[Byron]

Aquarium Co-Op and Girl Talks Fish both say they basically love any environment and just breed everywhere.

This is not only bad advice, it completely ignores the needs of the poor fish. From this nonsense alone I would never read let alone rely on anything these two sites post. If they get something as fundamental as the environment of Hillstream Loaches screwed up, they are unreliable period. There are times I wish we could somehow turn off the internet! The misinformation is astounding, and it is no wonder beginning aquarists get so frustrated.

Now that I've said my mind on that, to the facts. I'll cite sections from my online profile of the most common species, Beaufortia kweichowensis.

Origin and Habitat: Xi Jiang river system in China. Inhabits shallow but fast-flowing streams that have substrates of rock, gravel, sand and boulders.​

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Compatibility/Temperament: Generally peaceful. In its habitat it lives in large groups; males will "defend" their territory (selected on the basis of available food) by "topping" [see further under Discussion].​

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Diet: A natural algae and aufwuchs feeder, it will accept algae-type sinking foods, artemia (brine shrimp), frozen bloodworms, and natural algae should be encouraged to grow on rocks and pebbles. Blanched spinach and similar greens may be offered. For long-term health, algae must be allowed to grow in the aquarium.​

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Water parameters: Soft to medium hard (< 12 dGH), slightly acidic to basic (pH 6.5 to 8) water, temperature 20-24C/68-75F. Water circulation must be high to provide the oxygen saturation this species requires.​

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Discussion [excerpted]​

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Their unique flattened body with horizontal fins allowing them to hold on to rocks in a strong current is indicative of the proper environment in the aquarium. A tank with sand or gravel as substrate and smooth rocks coated with algae make a suitable environment for them. Plants are recommended to ensure excellent water quality as this fish actually prefers very clean water as evident in their habitat. Provide powerful currents and surface movements to ensure very high oxygen supply and continuing comfort in their home. They will not last long if the oxygen is depleted or if any of their requirements are not met.​

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Tankmates are difficult to select due to the requirements this species demands with respect to bright lighting (to encourage algae), cooler water and a stronger flow from the filter. This fish is not a good companion for goldfish.​

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When a second male invades another's territory, one fish tries to cover the other in a test of strength, termed "topping." There is rarely any damage inflicted, and one fish eventually retreats. The dominant males claim the best algae areas as their territory, while females tend to congregate in other areas. This fish must be in groups of at least six, or it can be very withdrawn and inactive.​

If one doesn't want to take my advice, there is the same given on Seriously Fish:

Beaufortia kweichowensis – Butterfly Loach (Gastromyzon leveretti kweichowensis; Beaufortia kweichowensis gracilicauda) — Seriously Fish

www.seriouslyfish.com

 

[GaryE]

Just look at the body of the fish. It is a giant suction cup.
Now why would a fish have to suction on to its feeding area in slow water? That thing has evolved to be able to move along in really fast water. It's adapted to hang on and move forward in really wild conditions. Since fast cooler water has a high oxygen content, it also needs that.
In a lower oxygen habitat it will conserve energy, be somewhat quiet, and not thrive longterm. They can survive in a slow tank - many here keep them that way. But to thrive?

 

[CherryBerry670]

No, they didn’t get the environment wrong: they just said the hillstream loaches, kept together in many tanks that weren’t rivers, did fine and bred frequently. Basically just saying that while they’re adapted to it, they don’t do badly out of it. Like panda garra. I figured that seemed like a good endorsement for a happy fish and came here to ask.

 

[Byron]

@CherryBerry670 my frustration and anger is not aimed at you. This is sa serious issue, giving false information. And it is one of the most dangerous and detrimental aspects of this hobby. No one is born knowing how to properly care for an animal be it a fish or whatever, we have to learn. But no one is going to learn from these sites that post inaccurate, misleading and often completely erroneous "advice."

They say this fish does fine in a different aquascape...nonsense. They are not fine. Each freshwater fish species has evolved to function in a very specific environment. The fish will be stressed when it is not in that environment. This causes long-term weakening and can bring on disease because of the weakened immune system and early death.

"The unique relationship between fish, their pathogens and the total environment in which they live means that under normal environmental circumstances there is a balance between the fish and the pathogens. In this case, the fish's immune system keeps any problems under control. However, if there is an alteration in one or more of the environmental characteristics then there may be a shift in the balance to the beenefit or detriment of either the fish or the pathogen. If the environmental shift is against the fish, then--in addition to any direct physiological impact--the fish usually becomes stressed, its immune system is suppressed and it becomes more susceptible to disease. ... The first stepis to gather as much information as possible about the natural environment and behavioural characteristics of the fishes you wish to keep. The more the cpnditions you provide differ from those in the wild, the more likely the fishes are to be stressed and susceptible to disease. [The Manual of Fish Health].

This is all part of the genetic blueprint of the species. And we shouldknow by now that we cannot change genetics just because we want to keep "x" fish differently from what it needs and expects. This is inhumane.

To say that the fish spawn in a differing environment is no proof of anything, other than the fact that all species of animal have as their strongest will the reproduction of their species. As Ian Fuller has told people who come up with this "my fish are fine in spite of...", no one knows this. Fish that swim and eat and spawn are simply making the best of whatever we force them into, good or bad. And they do not adapt to a different environment other than by evolution over thousands of years.

 

[CherryBerry670]

Ah, alright. I guess someday I’ll figure out a river biotope for them. Until then, my tiny unaggressive stingray dreams shall never be realised.

 

[GaryE]

If you do ever get the chance to make a river tank, they are ten times more interesting to watch in one. It's like a different fish, where it's colours and shape are the same, but what it does is very cool.

River set ups are hard because aquarium shapes make a hard flow into turbulence, with water bouncing off walls. I got to watch these fish in an expensive set up with a custom tank and a laminar flow powerhead, and it was a very cool thing indeed.

 

[CherryBerry670]

Do you have to fill the aquarium halfway to keep it the correct shape? Or buy a specially-shaped tank? My idea for it is mostly just sand with some round river pebbles and some kind of mossy plant. My local weird aquarium shop sells three different color varieties of hillstream loaches, and they’re all really pretty. Maybe something like 18 loaches in total? I’m pretty sure there’s no tankmates for them beyond snails, danios, and other really fast coldwater fish like that.

On a side note, yeah, I’ve seen some ridiculous fish websites. Looking up care guides for angelfish and seeing pictures of marine angels in freshwater care guides…shudder. I will say this, though: they’re usually on lock with care guides for commonly abused fish like bettas. Mostly to avoid getting screamed at, I think, but still nice.

 

[plebian]

@CherryBerry670 my frustration and anger is not aimed at you. This is sa serious issue, giving false information. And it is one of the most dangerous and detrimental aspects of this hobby. No one is born knowing how to properly care for an animal be it a fish or whatever, we have to learn. But no one is going to learn from these sites that post inaccurate, misleading and often completely erroneous "advice."

They say this fish does fine in a different aquascape...nonsense. They are not fine. Each freshwater fish species has evolved to function in a very specific environment. The fish will be stressed when it is not in that environment. This causes long-term weakening and can bring on disease because of the weakened immune system and early death.

"The unique relationship between fish, their pathogens and the total environment in which they live means that under normal environmental circumstances there is a balance between the fish and the pathogens. In this case, the fish's immune system keeps any problems under control. However, if there is an alteration in one or more of the environmental characteristics then there may be a shift in the balance to the beenefit or detriment of either the fish or the pathogen. If the environmental shift is against the fish, then--in addition to any direct physiological impact--the fish usually becomes stressed, its immune system is suppressed and it becomes more susceptible to disease. ... The first stepis to gather as much information as possible about the natural environment and behavioural characteristics of the fishes you wish to keep. The more the cpnditions you provide differ from those in the wild, the more likely the fishes are to be stressed and susceptible to disease. [The Manual of Fish Health].

This is all part of the genetic blueprint of the species. And we shouldknow by now that we cannot change genetics just because we want to keep "x" fish differently from what it needs and expects. This is inhumane.

To say that the fish spawn in a differing environment is no proof of anything, other than the fact that all species of animal have as their strongest will the reproduction of their species. As Ian Fuller has told people who come up with this "my fish are fine in spite of...", no one knows this. Fish that swim and eat and spawn are simply making the best of whatever we force them into, good or bad. And they do not adapt to a different environment other than by evolution over thousands of years.

You know who's just as dangerous and misleading? Pedantic know-it-alls like you. Most fish are highly adaptable, otherwise they would soon become extinct. While not perfect, Aquarium Co-op is an excellent source of information. Certainly better than most others. Bad mouthing people for reporting facts that contradict your personal beliefs does nobody any good.

 

[Byron]

You know who's just as dangerous and misleading? Pedantic know-it-alls like you. Most fish are highly adaptable, otherwise they would soon become extinct. While not perfect, Aquarium Co-op is an excellent source of information. Certainly better than most others. Bad mouthing people for reporting facts that contradict your personal beliefs does nobody any good.

I'm sorry you cannot or will not accept the scientific fact about fish. Yesterday you made a post in another thread that I have so far not been active in, in which you foolishly state that GH and pH have no effect on fish provided they are not above pH 8 and GH 250 ppm, and in your next post said anything below 400 ppm GH was fine. I could cite studies from Germany disproving this--in one the lifespan of cardinal tetras was directly proportional to the GH, and the dead fish upon necropsy were shown to have died from calcium blockage in the kidneys from the hard water. Jacques Gery, the recognized authority on characins for the last half of the 20th century, once said that cardinal tetras kept in harder water would have shorter lifespans, but in very soft and acidic water could live over ten years. I will identify misinformation so long as I am active on this forum in order to provide fact to those who want to learn and have healthy fish. You obviously do not care about the well-being of aquarium fish, and that is unfortunate.

 

[plebian]

I'm sorry you cannot or will not accept the scientific fact about fish. Yesterday you made a post in another thread that I have so far not been active in, in which you foolishly state that GH and pH have no effect on fish provided they are not above pH 8 and GH 250 ppm, and in your next post said anything below 400 ppm GH was fine. I could cite studies from Germany disproving this--in one the lifespan of cardinal tetras was directly proportional to the GH, and the dead fish upon necropsy were shown to have died from calcium blockage in the kidneys from the hard water. Jacques Gery, the recognized authority on characins for the last half of the 20th century, once said that cardinal tetras kept in harder water would have shorter lifespans, but in very soft and acidic water could live over ten years. I will identify misinformation so long as I am active on this forum in order to provide fact to those who want to learn and have healthy fish. You obviously do not care about the well-being of aquarium fish, and that is unfortunate.

Please provide references.

 

[plebian]

Indisputable facts:

1) Procreation is the number one most reliable indicator of fish well-being;
2) Several reliable sources have reported successful breeding of hillstream loaches WITHOUT high, or even moderate, levels of water exchange.

Go ahead and deny these facts. It's what is referred to as motivated reasoning:

“Motivated reasoning” is what social scientists call the process of deciding what evidence to accept based on the conclusion one prefers.

 

[Byron]

Indisputable facts:

1) Procreation is the number one most reliable indicator of fish well-being;
2) Several reliable sources have reported successful breeding of hillstream loaches WITHOUT high, or even moderate, levels of water exchange.

Go ahead and deny these facts. It's what is referred to as motivated reasoning:

“Motivated reasoning” is what social scientists call the process of deciding what evidence to accept based on the conclusion one prefers.

The strongest drive in all animals including fish is to reproduce to continue the species. This is the basis of evolution, adapting over time to continue the species, and the survival of the fittest. The fish will therefore do everything it can to reproduce no matter what we force upon it. It is not any indication of the well-being of the fish.