Do Fish Hurt?
- Thread starter Becca
- Start date
/www.firstscience.com/site/editor/02...gs_05092003.aspStevieJack
Fish Fanatic
This is a controversial subject that could be a touchy issue; a true angler tries to be as careful with the fish as possible.
Do live crickets that some feed to there fish feel pain? What about the worms that are torn while being eaten or other live food?
I love to keep fish as much as anyone and I also enjoy fishing as a sport.
Stevie
Do live crickets that some feed to there fish feel pain? What about the worms that are torn while being eaten or other live food?
I love to keep fish as much as anyone and I also enjoy fishing as a sport.
Stevie
fish do it all day, evey day , dont seem to bother themgaya
Fish Addict
Becca,
great article and thanks for posting it.
Since I started keeping an aquarium I have stopped eating fish.
I just can't help it, I always think of my little guys at home.
great article and thanks for posting it.
Since I started keeping an aquarium I have stopped eating fish.
I just can't help it, I always think of my little guys at home.
endparenthesis
Fish Herder
gaya
Fish Addict
endparenthesis-thanks for another great article.
I think that while perception and interpretation of experience differs from species to species (and person to person) that placing a value on one experience over another is irrelevant. A fish or any animal, given the choice, will avoid suffering/pain regardless of why. I have personally wrestled with these issues (haven't eaten a mammal in almost 12 years) but it doesn't seem that most animals care one way or another (who knows though). They eat each other all the time (well some do). Humans are capable of considering these issues and I don't know if that places some responsibility in our laps or not.
I think that while perception and interpretation of experience differs from species to species (and person to person) that placing a value on one experience over another is irrelevant. A fish or any animal, given the choice, will avoid suffering/pain regardless of why. I have personally wrestled with these issues (haven't eaten a mammal in almost 12 years) but it doesn't seem that most animals care one way or another (who knows though). They eat each other all the time (well some do). Humans are capable of considering these issues and I don't know if that places some responsibility in our laps or not.
Tropjunky
Fish Addict
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everything feels pain on some level maybe not like we do but even if they don't it should not be an excuse to do wot we consider painfull ourselves to other living animals.
StrontiumDog
Fish Addict
from the website.
Erm i gotta say scollops, utter load of scollops.
I had some Koi carp in a tank years ago i didn't have a net to catch them with. They fed outta my hand and let me pick them out of the tank with my hand. Carp are one of the only fish that can trully learn from thier own experience.
My fish never thrashed around the tank they let me take them...........imo they trusted me.
rollntider
Fish Herder
fish hurt and dont let anything fool ya, I have seen minnows wince in pain when sticking a hook in them to use as bait.
endparenthesis
Fish Herder
I think in this case it's important to be ethical more for your sake than for the sake of the fish. I don't think fish care one way or the other if they live or die... "care" isn't something in their cognitive realm. Again, this isn't something that goes over well on a fish forum, but I see fish basically as organic machines. I do a lot of research into artificial intelligence, and the differences between electronic life and biological life are often far slimmer than you might think. Scientists who create evolutionary algorithms to simulate something adapting to an environment (i.e. making a computer find a solution to a problem through millions of 'generations' of trial and error) are frequently surprised by the complexity and originality of the results. At this point the typical computer has the 'brain power' of an insect, with fish closing in fast on the chart. The idea of creating a robotic fish that appears to respond to physical harm with fear and pain reactions that we could empathize with (and even feel queasy witnessing) isn't far-fetched at all. But of course, knowing it was a robot, you would look at it and say, "It's too basic a machine. It doesn't feel anything. It's just programmed to respond that way because that's what keeps it in one piece. It isn't thinking anything of it." But then, if you had a biological organism of equal complexity obeying similar 'survival programs'... where exactly do the differences lie?
Yes, I know how insanely sidetracked I just got.
But anyway, my point is, I believe what matters here isn't what the fish 'feels'. What matters is how we treat it simply because it's a part of the same chain of life we are. The fish is simply a mirror. Whether you treat it with kindness or cruelty is a reflection on who and what you are as a thinking being. Yes I would discourage mistreating a fish for the sake of the fish to an extent, but for the most part I would discourage it because it's simply a bad habit to get into and it can create tiny echoes into the rest of your life. Allowing your compassion to lapse like that will, in some minuscule way, negatively affect who you are tomorrow. And it builds.
So what I mean is, if "I'm going to hurt it because it can't feel it anyway" is a thought that ever crosses your mind, then I think there's something wrong.
If we were talking about dogs, who definitely feel pain on a conscious, traumatizing level, it would be a whole different ballgame. But fish just don't seem to have the equipment for it.
There's a metaphor I keep in mind that seems to apply here. I see the planet as a sort of 'organism'. A person is made up of lifeforms that have thoroughly adapted themselves to act together as a system. An ecosystem is made up of the same. When a cell in your body decides to go rogue and puts its own existence (and proliferation) above the existence of the system... we call it cancer. Which eventually results in the death of both the system and the rogue cells. We're alive because our parts know that ultimately what's good for their neighbors is good for them. And our ecosystem is alive (albeit in a state of decline) because there are still enough plants and animals and people that know what's good for another organism is good for them.
What's good for the fish is good for you.
And also, we're earth-cancer.
I'm rambling today. My sincere apologies to all who've bothered to read this far.
(And yes, I realize you can easily follow robot fish analogies with robot people analogies. That's part of what's going to make the 21st century so interesting.)
Yes, I know how insanely sidetracked I just got.
But anyway, my point is, I believe what matters here isn't what the fish 'feels'. What matters is how we treat it simply because it's a part of the same chain of life we are. The fish is simply a mirror. Whether you treat it with kindness or cruelty is a reflection on who and what you are as a thinking being. Yes I would discourage mistreating a fish for the sake of the fish to an extent, but for the most part I would discourage it because it's simply a bad habit to get into and it can create tiny echoes into the rest of your life. Allowing your compassion to lapse like that will, in some minuscule way, negatively affect who you are tomorrow. And it builds.
So what I mean is, if "I'm going to hurt it because it can't feel it anyway" is a thought that ever crosses your mind, then I think there's something wrong.
If we were talking about dogs, who definitely feel pain on a conscious, traumatizing level, it would be a whole different ballgame. But fish just don't seem to have the equipment for it.
There's a metaphor I keep in mind that seems to apply here. I see the planet as a sort of 'organism'. A person is made up of lifeforms that have thoroughly adapted themselves to act together as a system. An ecosystem is made up of the same. When a cell in your body decides to go rogue and puts its own existence (and proliferation) above the existence of the system... we call it cancer. Which eventually results in the death of both the system and the rogue cells. We're alive because our parts know that ultimately what's good for their neighbors is good for them. And our ecosystem is alive (albeit in a state of decline) because there are still enough plants and animals and people that know what's good for another organism is good for them.
What's good for the fish is good for you.
And also, we're earth-cancer.
I'm rambling today. My sincere apologies to all who've bothered to read this far.
(And yes, I realize you can easily follow robot fish analogies with robot people analogies. That's part of what's going to make the 21st century so interesting.)
StinaUIUC
New Member
I didn't read the whole article...but I just want to add that...I believe it was in National Geographic quite a while ago...I read an article once that fish do not have pain receptors, and therefore cannot feel pain. Not everything necessarily feels pain...there have to be receptors for it. They obviously have to feel something so that they can react to it, but that does not mean that they are feeling pain.
gaya
Fish Addict
Maybe fish do not experience pain as we do but they are experiencing something. I don't know if fish have pain receptors (like ours) but I don't think that should matter. As far as random studies in science that we read, be it in national geographic or for in the US "scientific america" there will always be an opposing study that states the opposite. The point is...we don't know much in general.
for example-Human beings visually perceive a minute realm of the EMS but we know that X-rays, gamma rays, ultraviolet, and infrared radiation exists even if we can't see it. The complexity of biological life is, at this time, unknown. So maybe the fish are not experiencing pain as we know it but maybe they are experiencing something that we have no clue about.
endparenthesis- I really like and appreciate your commentary. I agree that ethics and morality is a component that may be unique to Humans and it is in our best interest to nurture that aspect of ourselves for our own survival. The variations of life are not mutually exclusive and that makes a great argument (thanks!) and yes, we too are merely biological machines, programmed via genetics and whatever environmental stimuli that passes our way from birth.
for example-Human beings visually perceive a minute realm of the EMS but we know that X-rays, gamma rays, ultraviolet, and infrared radiation exists even if we can't see it. The complexity of biological life is, at this time, unknown. So maybe the fish are not experiencing pain as we know it but maybe they are experiencing something that we have no clue about.
endparenthesis- I really like and appreciate your commentary. I agree that ethics and morality is a component that may be unique to Humans and it is in our best interest to nurture that aspect of ourselves for our own survival. The variations of life are not mutually exclusive and that makes a great argument (thanks!) and yes, we too are merely biological machines, programmed via genetics and whatever environmental stimuli that passes our way from birth.
endparenthesis
Fish Herder
Hmm, I may have killed another thread.
I'm just posting again because I found some sources that specifically suggest that the neo-cortex is the part of the brain that's required for experiencing pain (along with emotions) on a conscious level. In fact, it appears that a neo-cortex is a crucual element in possessing a conscious mind at all. Humans are unique in the relative size and complexity of their neo-cortex. Fish don't have one at all.
Mammals are actually the only animals equipped with one, which surprised me, considering how smart many birds are. But I found that birds are pretty well-developed in some of the other areas of the cortex, so they may still have a sort of proto-consciousness, and there are a great deal of brain functions we'd consider "intelligent" that don't require consciousness. They're in a gray area I think... I'm still researching.
Higher brain functions draw a great deal of energy from the body, and from an evolutionary standpoint, it's either impossible or impractical for many animals to provide it. They function as they need to without those extra abilities.
Since the majority of our existence is centered around the conscious realm it's hard to imagine a lifeform that can live its life outside of it. But there are many of them out there... in fact they make up the majority.
I'm just posting again because I found some sources that specifically suggest that the neo-cortex is the part of the brain that's required for experiencing pain (along with emotions) on a conscious level. In fact, it appears that a neo-cortex is a crucual element in possessing a conscious mind at all. Humans are unique in the relative size and complexity of their neo-cortex. Fish don't have one at all.
Mammals are actually the only animals equipped with one, which surprised me, considering how smart many birds are. But I found that birds are pretty well-developed in some of the other areas of the cortex, so they may still have a sort of proto-consciousness, and there are a great deal of brain functions we'd consider "intelligent" that don't require consciousness. They're in a gray area I think... I'm still researching.
Higher brain functions draw a great deal of energy from the body, and from an evolutionary standpoint, it's either impossible or impractical for many animals to provide it. They function as they need to without those extra abilities.
Since the majority of our existence is centered around the conscious realm it's hard to imagine a lifeform that can live its life outside of it. But there are many of them out there... in fact they make up the majority.
Becca
Fishaholic
No worries, I wasn't "not responding" because of what you said. I just thought the article was interesting and thought some of you might like to read it - and post what you think. This is one of those topics that's always interesting to see what people have to say.
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