Do Feeder Fish Lie Down?

[nmonks]

Now that I did not know. Thanks for sharing!

Cheers, Neale

Another downside is that diseases may be transfered from feeder fish to your terrapins, most notably Ich can cause a reaction in terrapins resulting in a form of conjunctavitus, eye infections and reptiles = very ill creature.

 

[nurglespuss]

No problem :>

Heres an honest question: around me, the local fish stores cheapest fish are £1.00 (thats for WCM minnows and drab baby goldfish) wouldnt this method of feeding work out to be very expensive? Or in some areas are things like 10p each or the equivalent? with regards to goldfish, sure would make pond stocking cheaper!

 

[nmonks]

The "feeder fish" thing is primarily an American habit. If you visit an American pet store you will see a big tank with hundreds of goldfish in it, being sold for something like 10-12 cents a piece. The reason they are cheap is because they receive literally the minimum level of care. Conditions are squalid, and many of the fishes will be sick or dead. Only an idiot would feed these to a valued predator... even with the issues of excess fat and thiaminase set aside.

Cheers, Neale

Heres an honest question: around me, the local fish stores cheapest fish are GBP 1.00 (thats for WCM minnows and drab baby goldfish) wouldnt this method of feeding work out to be very expensive? Or in some areas are things like 10p each or the equivalent? with regards to goldfish, sure would make pond stocking cheaper!

 

[ArauraDiscus]

Only an idiot would feed these to a valued predator... even with the issues of excess fat and thiaminase set aside.
==============================

Then call me an idiot. And my fish love them once in a while.

 

[Maximus]

Are you just looking for an argument?

I think by nmonks initial statement, it answers itself



Cheers,

Maximus

 

[ArauraDiscus]

I don't know how you get off saying I'm trying to start an argument. I posted my poi nt, hardly an argumentative statement by me. But thanks for your concern.

 

[nmonks]

ArauraDiscus --

The use of feeder fish is controversial. As a topic, it gets people worked up. But the basic thing is the while some people in the US consider it acceptable, it is almost entirely seen as unacceptable in the UK. Animal welfare in the US is essentially 20 years behind the level of the UK in this regard. When I was a teenager (during the 1980s) it was quite common to see people feeding oscars and catfish goldfish. It just doesn't happen anymore.

From a practical point of view, the use of goldfish is simply wrong. Goldfish contain large amounts of fat and a substance called thiaminase. The fat collects around the internal organs of the predator. Over time, it causes irreversible damage. Bob Fenner, for example, has written about the subject at length. The thiaminase issue is to do with vitamins. Thiaminase breaks down a substance called Vitamin B1. Over time, these leads to degeneration of a variety of systems including the nerves and muscles. Rosy red minnows, by the way, are the same as goldfish in these two regards.

When the feeder goldfish are kept altogether they cross-infect one another with bacterial infections. This happens so easily that sooner or later any person who uses these "feeder goldfish" will have to deal with the results. It's not an "if" it's a "when". Part of my 'day job' is answering fishkeeping queries, and the number of people with oscars and other predators that have become sick following on from the use of feeder goldfish would astound you. So I'm not making this up, I'm trying to help.

If you have to use feeder fish, the only safe approach is to breed your own livebearers, and then gut load them. Guppies or mollies are ideal. Livebearers have a very safe quantity of fat, and they lack thiaminase entirely. Livebearers also lack spines (unlike cichlid fry) so are safe for most predators to swallow whole.

While I am personally against the use of feeder fish as a matter of course, I accept that certain species can only be kept when fed feeder fish. The important thing is to educate people to the risks involved so that they understand how to use them safely. Goldfish simply don't conform to any sense of "safe" that is acceptable. If you value your fish and you want to do the best for them, you don't feed them goldfish. Period. End of story.

The bigger issue is *why* people use them. I know there are teenage boys who get a kick out of watching one animal destroy another. You Tube is full of videos of such things with heavy metal soundtracks and the like. This is just sick, and apart from immaturity it also reveals a basic level of cruelty in people of the sort that the Romans satisfied by feeding the Christians to the lions in the arena. If you're keeping fish that can only be supported with live fish, or believe that to be the case, that's one thing, but if you're using live fish because you think it's fun, I can't respect that.

Cheers, Neale

 

[severum boy]

Only an idiot would feed these to a valued predator... even with the issues of excess fat and thiaminase set aside.
==============================

Then call me an idiot. And my fish love them once in a while.

I don't know how you get off saying I'm trying to start an argument. I posted my poi nt, hardly an argumentative statement by me. But thanks for your concern.

Fairly obvious really, you are trying to get Neale involved in an argument by him replying and calling you an idiot, then you will argue that your fish (who know nothing about nutrition and thiaminase) love feeders. A while later you will post saying your fish have died and/or are looking ill.
Textbook.

Back on topic: the tap water would have been at a different temperature and with the chemicals in it, this will kill the minnows. Assuming you are hell bent on feeding feeders, declorinate the water, get it the same temp as the water in the bag, and they should stay alive longer.

 

[ArauraDiscus]

Nope really not at all severum. Not looking for him to call me an idiot, as I must be one by what he has said already. I hardly find that insulting. I don't know how old you are, but the older you get, the thicker skinned you are. Calling me an idiot is hardly ofdfensive to me and will not incite me to argue with someone. I left it at that, but people like you keep it going. Just let it go already. I can say what I want, and if you want to argue about it then go ahead, but I'm not arguing back on that point.

ALso:

Fairly obvious really, you are trying to get Neale involved in an argument by him replying and calling you an idiot, then you will argue that your fish (who know nothing about nutrition and thiaminase) love feeders. A while later you will post saying your fish have died and/or are looking ill.
Textbook.

Keep your know it all generalising comments coming, I've had my fish for 6 years, and they have not been sick in 6 years at all, and I haven't lost a single fish (from the tank that I use live fish for) albeit I've had problems with a molly in a different tank that never has seen a feeder fish. It's hardly fun for me to watch this either. I walk away, I can't watch because as many people say, this feeder fish is just as important in the grand scheme of things as my fish thats eating it. I just can't watch. But I can't afford beefheart all the time, and the flakes often are too small to grab the interest of my massive leopard cntepomas. So about every 3 weeks I get them a dozen feeders.

However I will argue on this point

Animal welfare in the US is essentially 20 years behind the level of the UK in this regard.

Thats a generalistic, and very prejudiced statement, almost racist. Calling us backwards for using feederfish. You fail to realize that your tropical fish flakes are made from feeder fish. If you British people are so much more advanced and proper than us savage americans, why do you even talk to us. Have fun in your blissful state of mind with your superiority complex.

 

[nmonks]

Read what I said, not what you *think* I said. I specifically made the point of saying *in this regard* Americans are still doing what the Brits did 20 years ago. I didn't say anything about Americans being savages. American fishkeeping *is* changing just as British fishkeeping changed in the 80s. Not a single US fishkeeping magazine advocates the use of feeder fish any more (I write for at least two of them) and none of the major US fishkeeping web sites do, either. I don't know any professional fishkeepers in the US who recommend using them except, just as here in the UK, you're keeping a species of predator for which there is no alternative.

Incidentally, since my mother was an American, half my family is American, I work with Americans and I've lived in America, I'm in no way anti-American. So ease off a little on the rhetoric. Discussion is fine, but overreaction isn't.

Cheers, Neale

However I will argue on this point

Animal welfare in the US is essentially 20 years behind the level of the UK in this regard.

Thats a generalistic, and very prejudiced statement, almost racist. Calling us backwards for using feederfish. You fail to realize that your tropical fish flakes are made from feeder fish. If you British people are so much more advanced and proper than us savage americans, why do you even talk to us. Have fun in your blissful state of mind with your superiority complex.

 

[-germ-]

Urm... where is this going?
Nmonks has made valid points, informative to the point IMO no one can regard it as offensive above helpful (bad english)....
Also there was no personification in the point about the U.S animal welfare system so, again IMO, it can't be seen as a personal nationalistic (rather than rascist) attack, but a point probably (although i suppose possibly) based on information/evidence and an attack at a system rather than the people represented by that system....
Anyway chill out or what has so far been an interesting thread'll get closed.

 

[Ladic]

oK, today was round 2.

I had got some guppies today (bought 10 but they gave me 20 at pet supermarket), but they tank they had em in, they had ALOT, and i mean ALOT of those fish dead, like a pile at the bottom.

So I brought em home, put them in a new plastic container most of them except 3, that I put on the turtle swamp.

My biggest turtle was trying like crazy to catch them but couldn't lol.

The rest of the fish lasted longer that my batch Minnows the other day.

I decided to put more fish in the turtle swamp (9) to see if they could catch them now, and my bigger turtle ATE 3!!!!

1 died in the turtle swamp so I took it out, but the other 5 are alive and well.

Meanwhile, about 2 hour after putting the other guppies in the plastic container, they have all died, only the the ones in the turtle swamp are living.

This fish die to easy.

So Basically the Filtered Water and Oxygenated water from the Turtle Swamp keep the fish alive, just putting them on tap water even the the container is new will kill them.

So basically not buy that many guppies, and just put them directly in the turtle habitat.

 

[nmonks]

oK, today was round 2.

Which hopefully means you've read and learned about what these freshwater terrapins need: pellets and veggies...

I had got some guppies today (bought 10 but they gave me 20 at pet supermarket), but they tank they had em in, they had ALOT, and i mean ALOT of those fish dead, like a pile at the bottom.

Argghhh!!!! NOOOO!!!! You [a] see lots of dead fish in the tank and still by the d*mn things. Are you deliberately trying to make keeping your pet terrapin as difficult as possible? Do you enjoy a challenge? Surely, if nothing else, you can see that buying live feeder fish from a tank filled with dead ones has got to be a risk! That would be like visiting the grocery store, seeing rats crawling about the fish counter, and still buying a salmon for your dinner.

My biggest turtle was trying like crazy to catch them but couldn't lol.

Because these terrapins do not eat fish. They have not evolved to eat fish. If they catch a fish in the wild, it's because they get lucky. They can't swim fast enough normally. They have evolved to eat slow moving invertebrates plus plant material.

I decided to put more fish in the turtle swamp (9) to see if they could catch them now, and my bigger turtle ATE 3!!!!

He's hungry. So what? Have you fed him any pellets yet? or vegetables? Do you want your terrapin to be healthy or not? Humans will eat grass and mice when they're starving, but neither make for a balanced diet.

1 died in the turtle swamp so I took it out, but the other 5 are alive and well.

Oh the humanity...

Meanwhile, about 2 hour after putting the other guppies in the plastic container, they have all died, only the the ones in the turtle swamp are living. This fish die to easy.

No, they don't die "to easy" they die just as quickly as any other abused fish.

So Basically the Filtered Water and Oxygenated water from the Turtle Swamp keep the fish alive, just putting them on tap water even the the container is new will kill them.

Well there's a major scientific discovery right there. And for my next trick I'm going to prove that fire only burns if there's oxygen and cars require gasoline to run. Seriously, and I mean this trying very hard to [a] educate you and save the life of your terrapins, you aren't demonstrating any kind of animal-keeping skills whatsoever. Please please please sit down with a book about terrapins and read about what they need to survive. Goldfish, minnows, and guppies are not even in the top 200 food items they do well on.

So basically not buy that many guppies, and just put them directly in the turtle habitat.

Oh for the love of God... look, the correct thing is to NOT BUY ANY MORE FEEDER FISH and provide your terrapins with food that terrapins NEED i.e., proper turtle food, vegetables, mealworms, earthworms, etc. These things are healthier, cheaper, safer, and easier to use. Do not buy food you happen to think it is fun to watch your terrapins kill. As much of a kick as you get out of seeing one animal kill another, you aren't doing your terrapins any favours at all. Quite the reverse. Each time you're using feeder fish instead of WHAT TERRAPINS ACTUALLY EAT you are making them that bit more weak and increasing the risk of them dying. How difficult is that to understand? I'm not saying this to be difficult. I really want you to enjoy your pets. But at this rate, they'll be dead in a few months.

Cheers, Neale

PS. I don't see that "tank" lasting long. Do you even know how big these animals get? I don't see a heater either, and I definitely do not see a UV lamp for the terrapins so they can synthesise vitamin D. Without that lamp, they'll be dead within a year. Without heat, even sooner if you live in a cold climate. Do you own a book about terrapins yet? Have you done any research at all?

 

[Ladic]

yeah, Im upgrading the tank really soon.

No there is no UV lamp, I keep them in the balcony and they get natural sunlight.

No heater either, because I live in florida and its always nice and warm.

Of course, I dont plan of feeding them fish every day.

I give them pallets, Dried shrimp and canned worms mostly.