Discussion Topic!

[hot_hazza3]

She is a guden aint she

 

[furryrabbit]

She is a guden aint she

if you are referring to me thanks but as ive pointed out before - its he not she
< stupid name - there are male rabbits though >
anyway - its nice to see its been pinned - let the discussion continue

 

[dwarfgourami]

I have been thinking about this question for a while, since I intend to go into keeping a colony of rare livebearers. In this situation, and particulary with fish that need to be group bred (some rarer livebearers won't breed so well if there's only a few of them), it's going to be a lot harder to keep the line pure, though I will do my best to keep up with other fishbreeders and swap, so at least might breed cousins with cousins rather than brothers with brothers. In many cases, all fish of a certain species can be traced back to a small group imported by a collector. But being distantly related like this seems less of a problem than being very closely linebred.

In the case of platies and guppies, they tend to be pregnant from the shop, probably with their close relations - not a lot you can do about that. But the next generation I try to separate as soon as they can be sexed, and if I do ever breed my next generation of platies or guppies, I will get a new male in from somewhere. By this time, even if I go to the same shop, and they have stuck with the same breeder, we'll still be talking very distant cousins rather than siblings.

But you have to note that I am totally uninterested in pure colours and a line breeding true and all the rest of it- I'm sure if I got talking to one of the enthusiasts in the BLA or the sort of person who gets an article in the PFK magazine about their show bettas, they would look blankly at me. Some people do feel strongly that there is something inherently valuable in developing a new colour strain, I am happy to keep mutts as long as they are healthy mutts. It is hard to argue with someone about methods when you don't start out from the same basic assumption about the result you are trying to achieve.

As for fish being retarded, I think it has been shown again and again that fish have more brain power than simply reacting blindly to instinct. They certainly seem to have a memory that goes back at least a few weeks. As far as I know, no surveys have been done to see whether the main problems with inbreeding in livebearers have resulted in problems with memory/problems solution or degeneration of instinctive behaviour or deformity or weakening of general health. Certainly, the two latter do seem to be a problem, but that is not to say there may not be problems elsewhere too.

One would also like to know more about other factors affecting the early forming of the livebearers we see in the shops: how much swimming space they have, what their diet is like, if they are fed antibiotics etc. Some people have noticed that shop-bought fish don't live long in their tanks, but that their fry grow up into more longlived healthier fish. This would seem to suggest that it may not all be inbreeding, but that early upbringing my also have a part to play. Nature versus nurture, here we go again.

 

[hot_hazza3]

WOW essay but a good one at that!!!

FR - Sorry its the name lol..."HE IS GUD AINT HE" lol

Regarding the end part of Dwarfgourami post, I agree that when I have brought fish from some shops they havent lasted long, and it has also made me wonder if they have different chemicals and diets as what we use, say for instance if your lps uses salt, do the fish get used to it and if you take them from there and then put into ur own tank and you dont use salt, can this cause them to get ill??? Even die???

Also the mixtures of food they take in and also, with the tanks in the pet shops they have about what 10/15 fish sometimes in a really small tank, do they get use to this and when moved, die of lonleyness?
(spelling poop sorry)
It just makes you think, how they have been brought up and to how we handel them afterwards!!!

H3


Hope that kinda made sense

 

[Neo8223]

Nice start-up furryrabbit. Nice name too. Its great having random funny names. heck my website is flyingcactus!

Anyhow down to business. Having studied ethics at my college and getting 95%, i think it would be appropriate for me to devote a bit of time towards this subject.
The obvious answer if you took a human into the picture would be "Hell no." However, we need to look at the natural environment of these fish. These fish in the natural environment live in is normally small ponds, rice pads and generally enclosed waters. Therefore down the years and into hundreds of generations, will have to come inbreeding even in the slightest forms. The only thing which has prevented man kind from in-breeding is migration. Thus mabey, inbreeding is inevitable.

In a breeders point of view, they would like to develop a pure strain looking for only the best looking fish. They have adopted and adapted the theory of charles darwin (survival of the fittest.) In this case, they have only kept selection. There is no hardy fish which comes into play here, hense it would come down to luck whether a fish was hardy or not (although inevitably, the hardiness of a fish will become reduced as generations of the same species are inbred) The main intention of the breeder will be to create a fish that looks to be a pedagree.

In my oppinion, i believe due to the nature of the environmental conditions, it is acceptable to inbreed moderately. However, i also dont like to see a lot of guppies floating about cuz they are dead. If you have 12 guppies, 6 males and 6 females, all from different batches so they are not inbred, the chance of getting the second generation to interbreed with each other is 1/924 i believe. (using the NCR function 12c6 i havnt done stats in a long time so i might be wrong. this is also assuming that each female has exactly the same amount of fry) Then the female would breed with another male, which will narrow the probability down to 1/792. If we consider the same approach, the results are 1/495, 1/220, 1/66. So if each female bred 6 times with different males each time, then the second generation would still be unlikely to inbreed. One in 66 matings would be inbred. This number would be reduced down to 1/15 for the next generation and finally 1/3 for the generation after that will have at least one strain wereby the fish mating are related to each other. Inthe wild then in a bigger scale it would probably be like this too. So although i dont think its particularly bad to inbreed, after 3 breedings, i feel it would be necessary to add a new strain to the tank.

I do however, think that mixing endlers with guppys is wrong if you attempt to always do it. Each species should be respected for what they are and not tried to mix. It is important to have different species for heritage. (although it is a bit hypicritical ofme saying this as i hav endlers and guppies)but i intend to soon only have endlers in my tank.)

 

[hot_hazza3]

Wow u must have been ace at maths...lol
But I agree ( In a not kinda of getting it way ) lol

 

[furryrabbit]

Nice start-up furryrabbit. Nice name too. Its great having random funny names. heck my website is flyingcactus!

Anyhow down to business. Having studied ethics at my college and getting 95%, i think it would be appropriate for me to devote a bit of time towards this subject.
The obvious answer if you took a human into the picture would be "Hell no." However, we need to look at the natural environment of these fish. These fish in the natural environment live in is normally small ponds, rice pads and generally enclosed waters. Therefore down the years and into hundreds of generations, will have to come inbreeding even in the slightest forms. The only thing which has prevented man kind from in-breeding is migration. Thus mabey, inbreeding is inevitable.

In a breeders point of view, they would like to develop a pure strain looking for only the best looking fish. They have adopted and adapted the theory of charles darwin (survival of the fittest.) In this case, they have only kept selection. There is no hardy fish which comes into play here, hense it would come down to luck whether a fish was hardy or not (although inevitably, the hardiness of a fish will become reduced as generations of the same species are inbred) The main intention of the breeder will be to create a fish that looks to be a pedagree.

In my oppinion, i believe due to the nature of the environmental conditions, it is acceptable to inbreed moderately. However, i also dont like to see a lot of guppies floating about cuz they are dead. If you have 12 guppies, 6 males and 6 females, all from different batches so they are not inbred, the chance of getting the second generation to interbreed with each other is 1/924 i believe. (using the NCR function 12c6 i havnt done stats in a long time so i might be wrong. this is also assuming that each female has exactly the same amount of fry) Then the female would breed with another male, which will narrow the probability down to 1/792. If we consider the same approach, the results are 1/495, 1/220, 1/66. So if each female bred 6 times with different males each time, then the second generation would still be unlikely to inbreed. One in 66 matings would be inbred. This number would be reduced down to 1/15 for the next generation and finally 1/3 for the generation after that will have at least one strain wereby the fish mating are related to each other. Inthe wild then in a bigger scale it would probably be like this too. So although i dont think its particularly bad to inbreed, after 3 breedings, i feel it would be necessary to add a new strain to the tank.

I do however, think that mixing endlers with guppys is wrong if you attempt to always do it. Each species should be respected for what they are and not tried to mix. It is important to have different species for heritage. (although it is a bit hypicritical ofme saying this as i hav endlers and guppies)but i intend to soon only have endlers in my tank.)

well said. are there many difficulties involved in the raising of endler x guppy fry? are they sterile? if not perhaps - as a solution to the inbreeding problem , you could buy say a male endler and give away your male guppy line. then breed your female line through the male endler - remove the endlers , and continue your guppy line with more store bought guppies mixed with your endler x guppys. would you have effectively ended your inbreeding problem by adding an endler strain < different endlers > every couple of generations? there would be no problem with buying from the same shop as it is guaranteed that the fish are not related.

 

[dwarfgourami]

are there many difficulties involved in the raising of endler x guppy fry? are they sterile? if not perhaps - as a solution to the inbreeding problem , you could buy say a male endler and give away your male guppy line. then breed your female line through the male endler - remove the endlers , and continue your guppy line with more store bought guppies mixed with your endler x guppys. would you have effectively ended your inbreeding problem by adding an endler strain < different endlers > every couple of generations? there would be no problem with buying from the same shop as it is guaranteed that the fish are not related.

Endler/guppy fry are not sterile, and as far as I'm aware no more difficult to raise than other fry- which is the problem, really. A lot of the guppies we see in the shops today have endler in them, and a lot of the endlers are no longer pure endlers. What compounds the difficulty is that livebearers,as we know, can store sperm, so even if you remove all males of the other species, it will be quite a long time before you can know who is the father of your fry.

 

[New_owner]

I think that if you have your fish in tank together you really can't stop them but I see where it hurts the breed but also it keeps it going I think every now and then go a new one and breed it to yours that you already have thatt way there is a third party

 

[hot_hazza3]

Yes thats ok, not to bad but still its the same topic of family, they could be aunts, uncles so on......

Its hard when you come to think about it!!!


Also comes down to personal chioce also!!!

 

[dwarfgourami]

I think that if you have your fish in tank together you really can't stop them but I see where it hurts the breed but also it keeps it going I think every now and then go a new one and breed it to yours that you already have thatt way there is a third party

Another option is what I do, to split them up into two tanks as soon as they can be sexed. Or if you've only got the one tank, sell all the members of one sex and get replacements from a shop. At the moment I am using tank dividers to prevent unwanted couplings, but this is of course only a temporary solution, as it does cut down on swimming are.
But I think you're right about the desirability of getting some new blood in every now and again.
How much damage inbreeding does seems to vary from species to species. There was an article on goodeids on this forum some time ago, where the author, a mr Langhammer, stated that he had been breeding goodeids for decades from an initial small group without any new blood, and with no seeming ill effects.
On the other hand, quite a few of the rare poeciliids in the Baensch guide carry the warning that breeding is extrememly difficult beyond the second or third generation. Of course, this may not be entirely due to inbreeding- factors like insufficiently understtod dietary needs, wrong temperature, wrong water params could all have their part to play- but it does make you wonder.

 

[furryrabbit]

i was thinking - do you think the further inbred the fish , the more likely they are to eat their fry? does anyone with second or third generation livebearers find this? perhaps they have lost their already limited paternal instincts through inbreeding? just a thought