Disappearing Pandas And Kuhli Loaches (Ed. More!)

[Fishy friend2]

Im sorry for your loss

 

[fizzlesticks]

Im sorry for your loss

Thank you. I just wish I knew what had happened, and whether it's safe to restock. Or will they just keep dying off?

 

[Mowbz]

I run two sucesful tanks and;

I bought 6 pygmy panda's the other Sunday, all but one dead following Monday morning. Went back following weekend, spoke my guy (who replaced them no fuss ) and he said that an hour wasnt long enough to acclimatise them. Took his advice (for these only, dont all be waiting this long lol), tried 2 hours, happy healthy Corys.

Sometimes its the smallest things...

 

[fizzlesticks]

I run two sucesful tanks and;

I bought 6 pygmy panda's the other Sunday, all but one dead following Monday morning. Went back following weekend, spoke my guy (who replaced them no fuss ) and he said that an hour wasnt long enough to acclimatise them. Took his advice (for these only, dont all be waiting this long lol), tried 2 hours, happy healthy Corys.

Sometimes its the smallest things...

With pandas, I remember the first time around I spent a couple of hours acclimatising them. The LFS said I'd probably done so for too long and cut down their oxygen intake (which, in hindsight, didn't make sense—I was adding tank water to their bag). The second time I spent more like 45 minutes, and they lived a week or two longer...

 

[Mowbz]

Lol, should have actually said pygmy corys, not pandas.

I have panda's in the same tank (see sig), not the hardiest of fish IMO, lot of maintenance and quality food to keep them happy. I started with 10, lost 3, bought 3, lost 5. All in the first month. I now have a mix of the first and second batach left, along with three large females i added with a view to breeding later down the line. (Donated a few to a local guy who needed to up his numbers also)

They're not the easiest of Corys to keep, they're VERY delicate, wont tolerate swings in temp, pH or ANY amount of ammonia of course. Im also starting to wonder if they have an intolerance to high nitrate levels (80+ppm) since it can creep up quite quick in their tank, and ive not lost any in 6 months, since i started doing larger weekely water changes and keeping the nitrate to 15-30 ppm (20 from the tap)

I would do a large water change the day before, and get the temp at the cooler end of the scale for them (21-22'C) if other tank inhabitants are ok with it. Buy the fish the following day, and acclimatise over an hour or so. As you said, the oxygen thing is rubbish, unless you just left the bag floating for two hours tied up. And even then, if this kills fish, how on earth do they survive delivery?

Personally, in a 10g tank, i would look at the others i have, Pygmaeus. You could get quite a few more (they're tiny!) and they seem to be a little hardier, at least in terms of tank requirements. They're ok at 22-26'C too, so your not so limited on other stocking. I have my 80ltr at 23', so a little above normal, but they're happy, so i dont want to change it, but it does leave me limited on other stock.

 

[IcQb]

Bought 4 cory trilineatus 3 weeks ago from LFS (all four from same hatch)
Came home, acclimatised them over 1-1.5 hours.
two days after, the smallest cory gave out.
Next five days, other smaller cory wasn't moving very much, gave up also...

The two larger ones were swimming around with my older 2 corys from day two. they never gave a sign of stress or anything else...

it's always like this when i buy cory's .

Some cory's secrete toxins when stressed. leaving them longer in the bag or same water (2h instead of 1h) could, i suppose, expose them to these toxins longer.

Next time i'm buying cory's, i'm asking for a second bag with just water, so i can switch them at home to the now bag and acclimatise them in the fresher water.

 

[fizzlesticks]

Some cory's secrete toxins when stressed. leaving them longer in the bag or same water (2h instead of 1h) could, i suppose, expose them to these toxins longer.

Next time i'm buying cory's, i'm asking for a second bag with just water, so i can switch them at home to the now bag and acclimatise them in the fresher water.

That's a good idea. I hope you have more luck next time!!

Lol, should have actually said pygmy corys, not pandas.

I have panda's in the same tank (see sig), not the hardiest of fish IMO, lot of maintenance and quality food to keep them happy. I started with 10, lost 3, bought 3, lost 5. All in the first month. I now have a mix of the first and second batach left, along with three large females i added with a view to breeding later down the line. (Donated a few to a local guy who needed to up his numbers also)

They're not the easiest of Corys to keep, they're VERY delicate, wont tolerate swings in temp, pH or ANY amount of ammonia of course. Im also starting to wonder if they have an intolerance to high nitrate levels (80+ppm) since it can creep up quite quick in their tank, and ive not lost any in 6 months, since i started doing larger weekely water changes and keeping the nitrate to 15-30 ppm (20 from the tap)

I would do a large water change the day before, and get the temp at the cooler end of the scale for them (21-22'C) if other tank inhabitants are ok with it. Buy the fish the following day, and acclimatise over an hour or so. As you said, the oxygen thing is rubbish, unless you just left the bag floating for two hours tied up. And even then, if this kills fish, how on earth do they survive delivery?

Personally, in a 10g tank, i would look at the others i have, Pygmaeus. You could get quite a few more (they're tiny!) and they seem to be a little hardier, at least in terms of tank requirements. They're ok at 22-26'C too, so your not so limited on other stocking. I have my 80ltr at 23', so a little above normal, but they're happy, so i dont want to change it, but it does leave me limited on other stock.

Thanks for the advice, Mowbz. Very helpful! I thought the oxygen thing was BS. I'll keep an eye out for pygmies.

 

[Mowbz]

Some cory's secrete toxins when stressed. leaving them longer in the bag or same water (2h instead of 1h) could, i suppose, expose them to these toxins longer.

Also true. Although its poorly researched topic, the current suspects are;

C. adolfoi, C. arcuatus, C. melini, C. metae, C. panda, C. robineae', C. rabauti, C. atropersonatus, C. sterbai and C. trilineatus.

The above list isnt exhaustive, and there are likely many more, since there are over 300 types of Corydoras. (Let me know if you want a list, i have a link somewhere that lists every discovered sub-type, inc "C" {SP.} numbers.)

It seems that they can secrete a substance toxic to other fish and themselves. When in a confined space (acclim bag..) this can quickly build up, leading to further stress, further secretion, and you guessed it, death.

This got me thinking. Yours and mine all died with no outward signs, just "went" overnight, no sunken belly etc, and within a week or so of them going into the tank.
I wonder if the acclimation of these fish should be looked into further. Because its such a poorly researched topic, we dont know how much of this toxin is/could be released over a set tiome period, and based on this, how much is required to provide mortalities in the bag, or in the tank. Its possible the tank deaths could be directly related to the amount of exposure to any toxins released in the bag, and those continuing to be released in to the tank.

We've potentially opened a very big, but also very worthwhile can of worms here.

 

[IcQb]

Some cory's secrete toxins when stressed. leaving them longer in the bag or same water (2h instead of 1h) could, i suppose, expose them to these toxins longer.

Also true. Although its poorly researched topic, the current suspects are;

C. adolfoi, C. arcuatus, C. melini, C. metae, C. panda, C. robineae', C. rabauti, C. atropersonatus, C. sterbai and C. trilineatus.

The above list isnt exhaustive, and there are likely many more, since there are over 300 types of Corydoras. (Let me know if you want a list, i have a link somewhere that lists every discovered sub-type, inc "C" {SP.} numbers.)

It seems that they can secrete a substance toxic to other fish and themselves. When in a confined space (acclim bag..) this can quickly build up, leading to further stress, further secretion, and you guessed it, death.

This got me thinking. Yours and mine all died with no outward signs, just "went" overnight, no sunken belly etc, and within a week or so of them going into the tank.
I wonder if the acclimation of these fish should be looked into further. Because its such a poorly researched topic, we dont know how much of this toxin is/could be released over a set tiome period, and based on this, how much is required to provide mortalities in the bag, or in the tank. Its possible the tank deaths could be directly related to the amount of exposure to any toxins released in the bag, and those continuing to be released in to the tank.

We've potentially opened a very big, but also very worthwhile can of worms here.

If this were facebook i'd like this

I think the major culprit is the toxins released in the bag... As fish only die a couple of days after bagging them,
but no other fishes in my tank ever suffered from anything (and there's four otto's in my tank doing just fine...)

I'd love that list by the way!

 

[willowstwin]

out of curiousity, do you have a bigger tank to move the loaches to? I've recently asked for stocking advice for my new 90litre (20 gallon), and I was advised against Kuhlis as they get too big (4 inches+)

 

[Mowbz]

I'd love that list by the way!

http/www.israquarium.co.il/ru/Fish/Corydoras/CorydorasABC1.html

Theres, a lot. Very good for helping to identify the rarer ones or any wild caughts that dont come up for trade often. The site is in Russian, but its quite easy to glean the general info needed, or copy and paste into google translate if you need more info.

The funny part is that a lot of the info on the site looks to have been uplifted and translated from English originaly. Easy to tell, as a lot of it references Ian Fullers books, who is actually a member on this forum ("Coryman") and widely known as a Corydoras god in relation to his expansive knowledge and research into them.

 

[IcQb]

I was thinking...
Dropping a few pieces of active carbon in with the fishes before closing the bag, would that absorb some of the toxins?
Maybe it's worth a shot!

 

[Mowbz]

Dropping a few pieces of active carbon in with the fishes before closing the bag, would that absorb some of the toxins?
Maybe it's worth a shot!

Could potentially work, actually. Good thinking!

 

[fizzlesticks]

Some cory's secrete toxins when stressed. leaving them longer in the bag or same water (2h instead of 1h) could, i suppose, expose them to these toxins longer.

Also true. Although its poorly researched topic, the current suspects are;

C. adolfoi, C. arcuatus, C. melini, C. metae, C. panda, C. robineae', C. rabauti, C. atropersonatus, C. sterbai and C. trilineatus.

...

We've potentially opened a very big, but also very worthwhile can of worms here.

That does need researching. Come on, Science! That's really interesting.

out of curiousity, do you have a bigger tank to move the loaches to? I've recently asked for stocking advice for my new 90litre (20 gallon), and I was advised against Kuhlis as they get too big (4 inches+)

Nope, 10G is my biggest tank at the moment. Kuhlis were the one fish recommended to me multiple times on this forum for small tanks (e.g. 10Gs), because their bioload is so small.

 

[Mowbz]

That does need researching. Come on, Science! That's really interesting.

I agree. But i cant think of a way to do it without the potential or inevitable loss of fish...

out of curiousity, do you have a bigger tank to move the loaches to? I've recently asked for stocking advice for my new 90litre (20 gallon), and I was advised against Kuhlis as they get too big (4 inches+)

Nope, 10G is my biggest tank at the moment. Kuhlis were the one fish recommended to me multiple times on this forum for small tanks (e.g. 10Gs), because their bioload is so small.

Kuhlis's are fine in a 10g, just dont go mad, they dont have a great bio load, but it adds up.