Disappearing Pandas And Kuhli Loaches (Ed. More!)

[fizzlesticks]

Hi guys,

Currently I keep a male betta and kuhli loaches (began with 6) in a 10G. I have tried keeping panda cories a few times fairly recently, but with no luck—they'd all slowly drop off, one by one, with no outward signs of illness beyond weakness. Now I'm trying kuhli loaches, but in a few weeks I've already lost three of six (they just disappeared overnight—I presume they were nibbled away after death). My betta, Delirium, is very friendly. He follows his tankmates around, but I've never seen him be aggressive. His health is fine (though his fins never quite came back as lovely as they were post-nippy-tetras). I use gravel, but it's very round and smooth.

I tested with my API test kit today before consulting you guys. The filter has been established for nearly a year. Any idea what's going on?


Tank size: 10G (planted)
pH: 8.2 (high, yes, but popular opinion here seems to be not to mess with pH—and that's just our tap water)
ammonia: 0
nitrite: 0
nitrate: 5.0
kH: don't know
gH: don't know
tank temp: 26 (I kept it closer to 22–24 for the pandas)

Fish Symptoms (include full description including lesion, color, location, fish behaviour): the pandas weakened one by one and died; the new loaches show no signs at all of illness—they've just died suddenly or vanished. They're otherwise active and inquisitive, zipping around the tank.

Volume and Frequency of water changes: At least 25% every week, and I use Prime

Chemical Additives or Media in your tank: Sponge, ceramic media and Seachem Matrix in the filter.

Tank inhabitants: Currently one male betta, three kuhli loaches, and snails that breed no matter how many I remove...

Recent additions to your tank (living or decoration): The loaches are a fairly recent addition.

Exposure to chemicals: None that I know of. We don't use fly spray or spray deodorant or anything.


EDIT 27/02/12: No loach deaths! But my betta, Delirium, has one raised white spot on him. I dosed the tank with Myxazin for two days when I first added the loaches and switched to sand (I know I should've quarantined, but I don't have a spare tank or filter/heater). Since I've noticed the spot, I've done one 50% water change and (since that didn't help) started the Myxazin again.

Should I use a half-dose with the loaches? Or isolate Deliruim in a container (but again, I don't have a spare heater) and treat him separately? I also have Pimafix, which I guess will be my next line of defence (I know I can't use that with loaches, though). He's a little bit lethargic but otherwise fine.

 

[Prime Ordeal]

I know you say the Betta is friendly but you can't see what he's up to at night. There aren't many other possibilities other than you may have been very unlucky and got two dodgy batches of fish. All your parameters look just fine (I'm assuming you're using a liquid test kit).

 

[fizzlesticks]

I know you say the Betta is friendly but you can't see what he's up to at night. There aren't many other possibilities other than you may have been very unlucky and got two dodgy batches of fish. All your parameters look just fine (I'm assuming you're using a liquid test kit).

Liquid test kit, yeah. Mostly he floats up the top at night—I'm usually up quite late, so there's enough light in the room to occasionally look over. I've never seen him even flare. I have wondered if he's knocking them off, but it just doesn't seem to match up when he's so good otherwise.

 

[Prime Ordeal]

What substrate do you have?

 

[fizzlesticks]

What substrate do you have?

Round, smooth aquarium gravel. I'd like to switch to sand, but have to find the time.

 

[Prime Ordeal]

Yeah I wasn't really angling at telling you off for not having sand I was thinking that the kuhlis and corys are mostly bottom dwellers and I wonder if the ammonia levels are greater at the bottom of the tank. It's grasping at straws but I'm out of other ideas. you could turn the filter off for five minutes to let the tank settle and take a sample from the surface of the substrate with a turkey baster and test that. It really depends on how good your flow is in the tank. If you think that the circulation is good then it's even more unlikely to be this.

Do you keep the substrate well cleaned? Are there any dark patches in it? How does your tank smell - is it a fresh smell?

The kuhlis are great escape artists, have you checked around your tank for them?

 

[fizzlesticks]

Yeah I wasn't really angling at telling you off for not having sand I was thinking that the kuhlis and corys are mostly bottom dwellers and I wonder if the ammonia levels are greater at the bottom of the tank. It's grasping at straws but I'm out of other ideas. you could turn the filter off for five minutes to let the tank settle and take a sample from the surface of the substrate with a turkey baster and test that. It really depends on how good your flow is in the tank. If you think that the circulation is good then it's even more unlikely to be this.

Do you keep the substrate well cleaned? Are there any dark patches in it? How does your tank smell - is it a fresh smell?

The kuhlis are great escape artists, have you checked around your tank for them?

I didn't assume you were telling me off, but thank you for clarifying anyway. I'd just like to switch to sand because it looks easier to clean and more fun for the little guys down the bottom. I do wonder about the gravel having ammonia trapped in it. Maybe my substrate's too deep? It's a couple of inches deep. I use a gravel vacuum once a week and try to reach all areas, but with a few plants in there that gets tricky. Admittedly, the tank doesn't smell the freshest no matter how much water i change weekly. I haven't noticed any dark patches, but there's usually a fair bit of mulm. The filter is the kind that sucks up from right at the bottom and trickles out of the top, disturbing the surface of the water, so circulation should be pretty good.

I just can't figure it out! Maybe I should switch to sand just to see if it makes a difference...

They shouldn't be able to escape the tank (in theory!!). It's an Aqua One AR380, fully lidded. Nowhere to sneak out from! I got my partner to help me count 'em last time I cleaned, just to make sure I wasn't counting wrong, too. But I will have a hunt now just in case!

 

[fizzlesticks]

A fourth kuhli reappeared, presumably from hiding! He must have been pretty sneaky! That's something, at least.

 

[Crossfire]

Kuhlis like to bury themselves into the substrate or hide themselves in impossible places when adequate hiding places are not available. They are also little houdinis. If the tank lid isn't tight enough or if there is an open space, they might have simply jumped shimp. If you switch to sand, and have a lot of live plants, driftwood, and caves for the kuhlis to hide in, you might start to notice them suddenly materializing out of thin air

 

[fizzlesticks]

A fourth kuhli reappeared, presumably from hiding! He must have been pretty sneaky! That's something, at least.

I'm pretty sure there are no more than four...but who knows! Would they do better with sand, do you think?

I was planning to restock this week, because the LFS has black kuhlis in now and a sale on...

 

[Crossfire]

A fourth kuhli reappeared, presumably from hiding! He must have been pretty sneaky! That's something, at least.

I'm pretty sure there are no more than four...but who knows! Would they do better with sand, do you think?

I was planning to restock this week, because the LFS has black kuhlis in now and a sale on...

They would do much, much better with sand

 

[Cazgar]

I was going to say maybe they'd made a bid for freedom but Crossfire beat me to it.
I have heard they are escape artists.
I have sand substrate & get dark patches with it but have had no losses

 

[Man of fish]

Yes sand+ friends+ hiding spots= happy you + happy kuhlis+ extra kuhli loach time where you'll see them.

 

[Fishy friend2]

IME kuhlies love lots of ground cover to hide and maneuver through, with sand and a good diet, youll see them lots more than you usually do

 

[fizzlesticks]

IME kuhlies love lots of ground cover to hide and maneuver through, with sand and a good diet, youll see them lots more than you usually do

Well, they're usually pretty active and gregarious. I see a lot of them as it is (which is, of course, a good thing).

The fourth one (that was hiding) was dead today. It had lost a lot of its colour and was skinny in comparison to the others. I don't know what's going on.