Dead mikrogeophagus ramirezi (new fish)

[JaysTank]

I bought a pair of mikrogeophagus ramirezi yesterday from my local aquarium store. I talked to them about water temperatures and they assured, as all the mikrogeophagus ramirezi they have, are bread and raised in Europe, at lower water temperatures than they live at in the wild, 25-26C (≈ 78F) will be fine for them. This morning the female looked like this, with swollen eyes as seen in the photo. It looked fine yesterday, perhaps was hiding more than the male when introduced to the tank, but otherwise nothing out of the ordinary.

All the other fish that I introduced to the tank last week looks perfectly fine, incl. the pair of apistogramma cacatuoides I also bought along with the ramirezi at the same time are behaving normally.

I did a water test and no NO2 or NO3 at all, so that shouldn't be the issue.

Do any of you more experienced fish keepers see anything in the photo that would raise an eye brow?

I called the store and they just told me to come down and get a new one for free, so no issues there at all.

 

[Slaphppy7]

What kind of test kit do you have?

I've never kept GBRs, because of the temp requirements, but do know they require pristine water conditions

 

[Byron]

There are a couple of serious misconceptions here, being inaccurate and misleading advice from your fish store people.

First, the temperature requirement of this species in any of its forms is in the range of 82-86F/28-30C. It does not matter where the fish were bred, this is a need in the species genetics. This did not kill your fish probably, but if the water is below the range I've given it weakens the fish and the fish has more difficulty carrying out normal functions to live. Water temperature for fish, because they are endotherms, is what drives their metabolism and just a degree can make quite a difference.

Another issue involves the inherent behaviours of this species. They are best kept either alone, meaning only one of the species in an aquarium with other suitable tankmates, or a bonded pair. A group would require significantly more space. A "pair" must select one another from a group, and if they bond they will likely live together in harmony, though this is not guaranteed. But acquiring any two or three or four fish is never advisable. There are ways to discern a likely pair in the store tank of a group.

I won't guess as to the issue with the dead fish. It cold be disease, genetics, whatever. I doubt its mate would have finished it so rapidly, though one never knows.

 

[GaryE]

She looks like whatever she last saw, it should be in a horror movie.

Rams are notoriously delicate. That looks like she had an infection going before you bought her, and the stress of moving allowed it to take off. It probably didn't even show much yesterday.

I would not keep cacatuoides with rams. The Apisto is a tougher fish that will dominate, and given the sensitivity of rams, the rams won't thrive with the pressure for turf. A. cacatuoides isn't a nasty fish, but it likes its breeding territory secure.

I never believe the temp adjustment story. A perfectly healthy ram will tolerate 26, but I can't see European breeders keeping them that cool if only because it would slow their growth. Getting them to market fast matters for profitability. And tolerate isn't good enough - Rams are from an extreme environment for a Cichlid, and the adaptations that demands won't vanish for our convenience. I think the store is probably sincerely saying what it wants to believe.

 

[JaysTank]

What kind of test kit do you have?

I've never kept GBRs, because of the temp requirements, but do know they require pristine water conditions

JBL Test kit. The liquid test where I drip in X amount of drops into 5CL of water from the tank.

 

[JaysTank]

She looks like whatever she last saw, it should be in a horror movie.

Rams are notoriously delicate. That looks like she had an infection going before you bought her, and the stress of moving allowed it to take off. It probably didn't even show much yesterday.

I would not keep cacatuoides with rams. The Apisto is a tougher fish that will dominate, and given the sensitivity of rams, the rams won't thrive with the pressure for turf. A. cacatuoides isn't a nasty fish, but it likes its breeding territory secure.

I never believe the temp adjustment story. A perfectly healthy ram will tolerate 26, but I can't see European breeders keeping them that cool if only because it would slow their growth. Getting them to market fast matters for profitability. And tolerate isn't good enough - Rams are from an extreme environment for a Cichlid, and the adaptations that demands won't vanish for our convenience. I think the store is probably sincerely saying what it wants to believe.

Ok I see your point. 1000s of years of genetic evolution, is stronger than a few decades of breeding. I should of course have thought about that before, but it obviously makes sense.

I've upped the temperature to 28C now, let's see how many plants will react to that. I have some Ludwigia 'Mini Super Red', which shouldn't do that well at that temperature, but they can be switched out if they fail to live at the higher temperature.

 

[Slaphppy7]

Just to add: Never trust the advice of pet store employees...they are there to make $, not give good advice

The majority of the time, they are clueless about proper fishkeeping

 

[GaryE]

Now, here comes the complication... the ram is a product of a region called the Llanos, and its warm water are caused by sun on a savannah. The cacatuoides comes from the shaded rainforest, and it's ideal max is 26. I would raise temps from 23-24 to 26 only for breeding.
Rams are very hard to keep in communities. Millions of them are sold, as they are not hard to mass produce, but it's their beauty that sells them, not how easy it is to keep them.

 

[JaysTank]

Speaking of issues, I JUST realized a bunch my rummy noses having small white/greenish spots looking like mold/fungus.. any ideas?

 

[JaysTank]

Just to add: Never trust the advice of pet store employees...they are there to make $, not give good advice

The majority of the time, they are clueless about proper fishkeeping

I totally see your point, however the guys in this store has had it for 30 years or so, and of course they need to make $, but I generally see them as proper aquarium nerds, that loves the hobby. It's not a regular small fish store in a mall, they are proper dedicated. I've been in the resurant business for 2 decades and if I didn't give good food/wine advice at my restaurants, I would be out of business real fast, as people would hate to come to my places. I see it the same way with good fish store, or any well managed business in general to be honest.

 

[JaysTank]

Now, here comes the complication... the ram is a product of a region called the Llanos, and its warm water are caused by sun on a savannah. The cacatuoides comes from the shaded rainforest, and it's ideal max is 26. I would raise temps from 23-24 to 26 only for breeding.
Rams are very hard to keep in communities. Millions of them are sold, as they are not hard to mass produce, but it's their beauty that sells them, not how easy it is to keep them.

That's really valuable information mate. I have for sure made mistakes here with my first tank, and I thought I had made a lot of research, but clearly there is a lot to learn. You guys help a ton!

 

[Ichthys]

GaryE’s advice is spot on. I’ve kept fish for 50 years, including 20 in shops, and my best advice is not to listen to them. Do your own research. There are good shops, of course, but most aren’t.

I was a bit concerned about your zero nitrates. Unless your tank is lightly stocked and very heavily planted, zero nitrates usually means you need a new test kit. If there’s a bottle you need to shake before adding it, shaking isn’t enough and you need to bang it on a solid surface to dislodge a precipitate. I’ve no idea why they don’t tell you this, but they don’t. Probably because it sells more test kits…

 

[JaysTank]

GaryE’s advice is spot on. I’ve kept fish for 50 years, including 20 in shops, and my best advice is not to listen to them. Do your own research. There are good shops, of course, but most aren’t.

I was a bit concerned about your zero nitrates. Unless your tank is lightly stocked and very heavily planted, zero nitrates usually means you need a new test kit. If there’s a bottle you need to shake before adding it, shaking isn’t enough and you need to bang it on a solid surface to dislodge a precipitate. I’ve no idea why they don’t tell you this, but they don’t. Probably because it sells more test kits…

I was inaccurate in my explanation of 0 nitrates, what I meant was that it wasn't at level that was to worry about. There is a bit, within the acceptable range.

I have never heard the thing about shaking/banging the bottle. I will do that from now on, thank you!

 

[GaryE]

I think sometimes we're too hard on pet shop staff. Owners, okay, they should be well educated. But in my teens when I caught fish in a little store, I probably told people the extent of my knowledge. 50 years later, I cringe at that. I thought I knew a lot back then, as most people do when they just touch on a new subject. We're all experts for the 2nd to 5th year of learning....

I wasn't just trying to make money for someone. I just repeated what people had said to me. Sorting through the fishlore myths in our hobby takes time, and experience. I went from a pet shop to working in a print shop, and didn't know much about that either. One thing interested me, so I learned. The other was a job.

The local store used to have a program where they would hire kids who had been in legal trouble, to supposedly get them back on track with a decent job. Some of them had been too stoned to remember their High School teachers, and the tales they would spin about the needs of fish were better than the ones they tried to explain why they'd skipped class with. That project ended quickly, but if I hadn't informed myself, ah, the things I could have believed.....