Dark Knight Rams!!!

[itiwhetu]

Dang! I'd hoped you'd come across a truly foolproof method.
The problem with 'paler', for example, is that it's all relative...even if you have a definite male to compare with.
I'm also thinking that observing the fish as they see their reflections in the tank sides might be helpful.

You do know that they don't see themselves in the reflections in the side of a tank. That is just what we see. They just look straight out of the tank and don't see themselves. But females of any species won't react with a mirror like a male will.

 

[Bruce Leyland-Jones]

You do know that they don't see themselves in the reflections in the side of a tank. That is just what we see. They just look straight out of the tank and don't see themselves. But females of any species won't react with a mirror like a male will.

Depends on the lighting.
When it's dark outside, put the light on and you'll see yourself looking back at you.

 

[itiwhetu]

Depends on the lighting.
When it's dark outside, put the light on and you'll see yourself looking back at you.

But that is not a usual situation with your tank.

 

[Bruce Leyland-Jones]

But that is not a usual situation with your tank.

Mebbe not the 'usual' situation, but when it goes dark here, I don't have the room light on, only the tank lights being on.
As summer ends and darker days arrive, more of us will be in the same situation.

 

[itiwhetu]

Mebbe not the 'usual' situation, but when it goes dark here, I don't have the room light on, only the tank lights being on.
As summer ends and darker days arrive, more of us will be in the same situation.

So if they see a reflection of the tank why are your fish not banging their heads against the wall of the tank as they try to swim to the other end.!!

 

[Bruce Leyland-Jones]

So if they see a reflection of the tank why are your fish not banging their heads against the wall of the tank as they try to swim to the other end.!!

Perhaps for the same reason that, having initially 'flared' at the newcomer, they realise what it is and continue unabashed?

 

[kribensis12]

I think your tank is a little to bright for these guys, it needs to be softer

Why do you believe that the light is too bright? What is your definition of "softer"? This is a cheaper-end LED light which is mostly white & blue light (who needs red/green - pretty sure hornwort will grow in the dark!).

The tank has a huge mass (literally takes up 1/2 of the surface of the tank) of floating hornwort that is about 5 inches deep and they have the option to swim in/under it which provides a reprieve. Additionally, there are 4 caves for them as well.

 

[Bruce Leyland-Jones]

Why do you believe that the light is too bright? What is your definition of "softer"? This is a cheaper-end LED light which is mostly white & blue light (who needs red/green - pretty sure hornwort will grow in the dark!).

I'll guess that it's down to an awareness of their natural habitat, which wouldn't be as open an environment as your tank appears to be.
That said, these aren't wild fish and whilst there'll be some genetic 'hardwiring' to favour dimmer and more enclosed waters, (nature), there's also a 'nurture' element to consider, where your fish have known nothing else and your open environment tank is quite normal to them.

 

[kribensis12]

Beautiful fish! Nice to see how they're colouring up as I read through the thread!

I only know a little about rams, although I do plan to have some rams and apistos at some point in the near future.

My concern with your tanks right now though is size/overcrowding I'm afraid... Not having a go at you, just asking what your plan is, and concerned that these delicate fish won't handle extra stress too well.

A 15g tall has a very small footprint, and two out of four corners are now taken by four fish. I'd be concerned that the pairs are going to be stressed out, when they're having to constantly defend against so many other fish always in their territory. The unpaired fish might become stressed from being chased all the time and not having anywhere else to go!

You said you were planning to keep one or two pairs yourself, but where do you plan to put them? From what I've read, a 15g tall isn't enough footprint space for one pair, let alone two. Your other tanks listed in your profile are also small, but with fish that will need much more space once they're larger. Are you planning to upgrade tank sizes?

Thanks @AdoraBelle Dearheart

As it is a grow-out tank and most fish have not matured, I am not concerned about over-crowding. I've been keeping close tabs on them to ensure that the 12 fish do not seem bothered by the 4 that seemed to have paired off.

The tank has a huge section of hornwort, 4 caves and driftwood and I do not see any of the rams attempting to hide. That, for me, would be a sign that a move is imminent. Not even the smallest DK Ram seems stressed - great color, extremely active and no damage to any of the fins.

I plan to sell the extra DK and Gold Rams once I've been able to determine which pairs are truly bonded. I have an extra 20g laying around, one cycled 10g w/ guppies (just to keep the tank cycled) and another 10g that can be filled at any time.

The plan is to try and keep 2 pairs of Rams - one in the 15 and one in a 10 and use the additional 20g & 10gs as grow out tanks for fry.

If the 10g seems to small for the Ram pair, I will upgrade them to a 15 or 20. They are very sensitive to water quality as you've noted, but so far I seem to be able to provide them with an environment where they can grow and thrive.

 

[kribensis12]

I'll guess that it's down to an awareness of their natural habitat, which wouldn't be as open an environment as your tank appears to be.
That said, these aren't wild fish and whilst there'll be some genetic 'hardwiring' to favour dimmer and more enclosed waters, (nature), there's also a 'nurture' element to consider, where your fish have known nothing else and your open environment tank is quite normal to them.

I'm aware of their natural habitat, which is why I have done everything that I can to soften the water - in addition to adding IALs to continue to soften it and provide tannins etc. They originate from leaf and twig filled rivers, lots of shade and many hiding places (include multiple layers of the leaf litter). The Rams choose to swim out in the open, without fear - they rarely utilize any of the caves in the tank; I only ever see them "hiding" in and beneath the hornwort which is TBH rare. If they appeared to be bothered by the lighting or decorations, I would obviously make a change.

I have A. Cacatouides and they would HATE this set up - not near enough cover. They are incredibly shy and do not like to be in the open at all - they only utilize the bottom 1/3 of the tank. These Rams use the entire aquarium.

 

[Back in the fold]

Very cool fish. Rams are awesome ! The King of dwarf cichlids.

 

[kribensis12]

Quick update - a pair of Golds have spawned!

They laid the eggs on top of the heater last night and this morning they were gone. I'm not sure if they ate their eggs or if another fish did (both are highly likely).

I'm keeping tabs on that pair to see if they spawn again before separating them to ensure that they are a pair. I took a picture of the eggs but it's almost impossible to see them because of all of the hornwort. A pair of Dark Knights are looking like they will breed soon - so keeping an eye on them as well!

 

[alistairw]

I saw some of these in my LFS yesterday, although they were called “Black Devils” there! £100 for a pair too!

 

[kribensis12]

I saw some of these in my LFS yesterday, although they were called “Black Devils” there! £100 for a pair too!

Wow! I hate when people start giving them a bunch of different names as there is an actual cichlid called the Red Devil and calling them Black Devil's is very confusing.

To my understanding these Rams are given two "main" types of names - Black Ram (which is not pitch black, but it is very dark) and then Dark Knight which indicates that full grown, they should be 100% pitch black.

That pricing seems a little above, but on par with the U.S.

 

[alistairw]

Wow! I hate when people start giving them a bunch of different names as there is an actual cichlid called the Red Devil and calling them Black Devil's is very confusing.

To my understanding these Rams are given two "main" types of names - Black Ram (which is not pitch black, but it is very dark) and then Dark Knight which indicates that full grown, they should be 100% pitch black.

That pricing seems a little above, but on par with the U.S.

I may pop in the LFS again at the weekend. If they are still there, I’ll take a sneaky photo and post for you!