Dalmatian Molly Is Sick...please Help!

[newfishmommy]

First I would like to say hi to everyone and apologize for my first post being such a long post.

I have a male dalmatian molly named Disco. (He swims and turns around like he is dancing that is how he got his name...lol)

My poor Disco is sick and I am not real sure what is wrong with him exactly.

I have done some reading on different things and I think I may have it narrowed down to one or two things....Ich or Velvet Disease.

Here is the story:

Disco has been perfectly fine, until today. Today I noticed that he is rubbing up against decorations in the tank like he is scratching and he has been staying to himself and not swimming around actively as usual. About a week ago, I got a spotted rubber lip pleco (Bubba) and the day I bought him I noticed that he had a goldish dusty looking glimmer about him and I thought it was a cool marking for him to have.....until today.

Disco don't have any signs of Ich spots on his body, just rubbing things and not as active. Bubba isn't rubbing anything at all and is very active. When reading up on the 2 fish diseases, I started wondering if it was Bubba that is actually sick and is making Disco sick, but I am not real sure.

Can anyone tell me if any of this is normal? Would Disco be acting this way if he isn't actually sick? Could that pretty goldish dusty glimmer about Bubba be velvet disease and making Disco sick?

This is my first tank ever, when I started it I had no idea about the nitrogen cycle at all. I wanted to do everything right and ended up doing everything wrong because I was listening to my LFS. I started with fish, only running the tank for 1 week with no fish at all. The tank is currently still trying to cycle...6 weeks now. I am doing partial water changes (50%) daily to keep ammonia levels down and staying on top of things religiously until the tank actually finishes cycling. I added a little bit of aquarium salt to the tank tonight and turned up temp to 84 degrees.

Test Readings are:

ammonia 0.25
nitrite 0 ppm
nitrate 0-5ppm

Is there anything else I can do?

 

[Athena]

Hi there!

Without actually seeing either of the fish it's a bit difficult to give a precise diagnosis as the symptoms of your molly could be a few different things but, yes, the symptoms being shown do point towards Velvet disease (e.g. flicking, scraping as the fish tries to dislodge the parasites). Velvet is a bit similar to Ich in that the parasites can only be eradicated at the free-swimming stage. Another reason for fish scraping/flicking is Flukes, but since you mentioned Bubba's appearance I think we need to begin there.

Possibly Bubba has velvet (and that dusty, goldish appearance is a tell-tale sign of it) and some of the parasites from him have probably matured and dropped off. They then divide into lots of tiny cells that swim and attach themselves to another host, to burrow into their flesh/gills and eat the cells and once they mature they again drop off, divide and seek another host. It's extremely contagious in the tank, much like Ich.

It might be helpful if you could post some photos of Bubba - but either way, given the symptoms, and the fact that the fish are in poor tank water conditions and stressed by that (which is a major cause of Velvet) it's more than likely to be Velvet disease.

Other signs to look for are: clamped fins, rapid breathing, loss of appetite, weight loss, rusty/gold film over body, lethargy.

Regards - Athena

 

[Ceramicbull]

Hello,

First I would like to say hi to everyone and apologize for my first post being such a long post.

I'd like to apologize for hijacking your thread for my own purposes, I have a similar problem with the exact same species of fish so it seemed a waste to start a second thread.

Disco has been perfectly fine, until today. Today I noticed that he is rubbing up against decorations in the tank like he is scratching and he has been staying to himself and not swimming around actively as usual. About a week ago, I got a spotted rubber lip pleco (Bubba) and the day I bought him I noticed that he had a goldish dusty looking glimmer about him and I thought it was a cool marking for him to have.....until today.

I have a female dalmatian molly that is very pregnant. Just a few hours ago I noticed some brown spots on her cheeks that in the light looks like that "goldfish glimmer" newfishmommy just described. I have to agree, newfishmommy's description does sound a lot like what I've read about velvet. However, I can't seem to find one good picture that matches what my molly looks like. The molly's genetics are very diverse, so I'm hopeful that maybe it's just a bit of creamsicle color coming out but I fear I am deluded. Your molly could have its gills infested without showing any discoloration. My Molly doesn't display any other symptoms however, nor do any of her fellow inhabitants. I just added new inhabitants only a few days ago (8/2). I have been lowering my salt content (the tank is brackish) slowly because I was advised that I had been adding way more than I needed. Perhaps I should raise it again as a preventative measure in this case? I also, like newfishmommy, was changing the water daily (10-20%, however) to lower the salt.

The tank is currently still trying to cycle...6 weeks now. I am doing partial water changes (50%) daily to keep ammonia levels down and staying on top of things religiously until the tank actually finishes cycling.

The only help I can provide you regards your cycle: I'm afraid you might be changing the water too much for the bacteria to actually build up. What were your test readings in the past? How large is your tank? Ironically you need to have ammonia now in order to not have it later. The ammonia is food for the bacteria, and without any to feed on you'll never get any notable nitrites. Without any notable nitrites, you will never have more nitrates than what comes in your tap water, and nitrates are what you want, sort of. You need to get rid of them too, but nitrates are what you should be disposing of via water change, not ammonia or nitrites, with some exceptions (read on).

Unless your tank is very small, 2 fish should not produce enough ammonia to require 50% every day. Change the water after the ammonia builds a little, and change as little as necessary to keep things non-toxic. Pretty quickly you'll have bacteria doing that part for you (it will take a while to be perfect, but at least you won't have to worry about toxicity), and nitrites will be the primary enemy. Nitrites are nowhere near as awful as ammonia is to fish, but you'll still want to change the water occasionally. Don't panic if the nitrites go "off the chart"; my API test pretty much was useless after 1 ppm, the fish will be fine as long as you stick to your scheduled changes and watch for signs of distress from them. You'll spend most of your time waiting for the nitrites to subside, since the bacteria that eat it grow v-e-r-y slowly. After the ammonia is at trace levels, because your bacteria will be firmly established, you can add plants which will help with the nitrogen cycle. Eventually your nitrates will rise, you'll see nitrites go back to recognizable levels, and finally dissipate for good (until you add more fish, thanks to the lazy bacteria). Once you have a healthy bacterial colony, your ammonia will be converted nigh-instantly to nitrate. Nitrates will not harm your fish, except in extreme levels-depending on the amount of oxygen in the water up to 100 ppm!-but you shouldn't have to worry about it getting this high with weekly water changes, most folks here seem to keep it around 20-40ppm.

That's about all the advice I can give. Most folks on this forum prefer to do the fishless cycling, but I too followed the advice of my LFS guy and did it with fish, so at least I know about that (and knowledge is power). I had 3 mollies in a 29G tank and it took me 21 days (very lucky), about 5-7 (10-20%) water changes, and no fatalities. Please don't take that as bragging, I had the help of some plants, and I was very lucky, but I want to make sure you understand that it shouldn't have taken 6 weeks for the cycle to start.

tl;dr: Don't change the water so often, or as much.

Not sure what you should do at the moment since your fish are ill, if you expose them to ammonia now in their weakened state it won't help their immune system, but constant 50% water changes didn't prevent this and will continue to add stress.

Hope this helps with your cycle at least, and I hope our Mollies (and Bubba) can be helped,

C-Bull

 

[newfishmommy]

Hi thank you both for your advice

An update first on Disco:

After reading over a few things on Ich and Velvet Disease, I added some aquarium salt to the tank (maybe half of the recommended dosage) that I had left after being told I shouldn't use salt in my tank and quit using it. The original temp of my tank stayed at 82 degrees. I turned it up to 84 degrees and turned off the lights last night. Later tonight I will turn up the temp again to 86 degrees and continue to leave the lights off and the temp up over the next few days. Today, after doing all of this Disco appears to be acting better He is swimming around again and as active as he was before acting sick at all. So far today, I haven't noticed him rubbing up against anything yet but he might be still and I just haven't noticed. I will keep a watch on that.

It might be helpful if you could post some photos of Bubba (Athena)

I will do my best to gets some pics of Bubba and post them, he likes to run off and hide. As soon as I can catch him on photo I will post pics.




Ceramicbull thank you so much for the help on cycling my tank. You would not believe the trouble I have had and I myself have questioned the very thing you were talking about (changing water too often preventing the cycle to continue). Ok, now to answer your questions(Sorry I had to break this down to make sure I answer everything)

What were your test readings in the past? (Ceramicbull)

My test readings have always been the same for the most part since I started doing water changes everyday.

PH 7.2 - 7.4 (started at 7.4 and dropped to 7.2)

Ammonia 0.25 - 1ppm (mostly 0.25 only reached 1 ppm once during weekly water changes, not daily) Daily changes never over 0.25 ppm and if I do every other day never over 0.50 ppm.

Nitrites 0 ppm (always)

Nitrates 0 ppm (always)

Temp 82 degrees (always until now)


I was told I had to keep my ammonia level below 0.25 ppm since I do have fish to keep them healthy and it was imperative to do those changes daily. I have missed a day and the only thing that changes is the ammonia level. (it will raise to 0.50 ppm) When I first started the tank I had decided Sundays to be the day of the week to do weekly water changes, when doing the weekly changes I was only removing 10 gal. of water a week and the highest ammonia level reading was 1 ppm. So far, I have never had a nitrite or nitrate reading at all.

***If I am reading the chart you provided for me on the ammonia level charts correctly...It looks like my fish should be safe until reaching a 2 ppm ammonia level. Please let me know if I am wrong on this, I want to keep my fish safe.*** If I am reading this correctly, if I go back to weekly water changes how much water do you suggest changing at one time?

How large is your tank? (Ceramicbull)

I am sorry I didn't include this information earlier, I know it is very important. My tank is a 55 gal. tank.


Occupancy of the tank:

5 Ghost Catfish
2 Dalmatian Lyretail Mollies
2 Silver Lyretail Mollies
1 Black Mollie (had 2 but one died)
2 Turquoise Bluetail Guppies
2 Sunburst Wag Platys
1 Spotted Rubber Lip Pleco

(All fish were introduced at different times over a period of 5 weeks)

I want to make sure you understand that it shouldn't have taken 6 weeks for the cycle to start. (Ceramicbull)

Yes, I understand and was wondering what the problem was...lol. Everyone just kept telling me you have to change the water to keep the fish safe everyday. I even asked that question about it slowing down the process and they told me the beneficial bacteria grows in the filter and on the decorations in the tank that changing the water wouldn't have any effect on that. Needless to say, I knew something was wrong somewhere and this has been the hardest thing to get going I have ever seen.

 

[newfishmommy]

Hi,

I have a pic of Bubba...wasn't too bad!

http/i37.photobucket.com/albums/e82/babygirl73_photos/Bubba.jpg

Sorry couldn't figure out how to post the actual pic.

 

[Ceramicbull]

Glad to hear about disco, but a few things.

First, I am not an expert, but you are reading the chart right. I hold no fish degrees, have only one tank, but I do know fish can handle way more than .5 ppm in most situations (exposure is still not great for long term health, hence the many fans of fishless cycles). Because of your stocking I wouldn't keep ammonia at the limit. From your description you were probably doing it right by taking 10gal every week, thats about 20% and if it was staying around or below 1, you should be fine. Your stock list looks pretty good, but it is way too soon for a full tank. It is simply way too many fish to cycle with (and probably why they gave you the idea you had to change the water so much) and not all fish are as tough as others. I fear particularly for the ghost cats, they have a particular reputation for sensitivity to water conditions (even medications!). If you do want to fish cycle, you want to have about 1 inch of fish (current size) for 10 gallons. Your current stock will make the ammonia build up quickly, so you need to be testing very frequently at least until you get a feel for the bioload.

If I were you, I'd try to return everything but the livebearers (it would be best if you could pick just four-six), particularly the Ghost Cats. Fewer fish will build ammonia/nitrite/nitrate levels much more slowly and therefore you can push it much more safely. The reason I suggest the livebearers is that they're a fairly hardy bunch with a good tolerance for salt. Since you'll be treating for velvet at the same time as cycling they'd probably be the most able to handle the double duty. I know it will make them more difficult to return, but please be nice and let the fish store (or whoever) know they've been exposed to velvet. Not letting them know would just risk their entire stock, your fellow aquarists, and therefore the livelihood of the store itself. If you watch them just drop the fish in with their stock after informing that store, please never shop there again and let everyone know who/where it was (consider letting their manager know). I wouldn't count on any fish that come from there being in good condition in that case.

If you cant (or wont) return them, you might consider getting a second or even third smaller tank. This option is more expensive, but there are all kinds of reasons you'd want to have multiples: hospital tanks, quarantine tanks, and fry tanks (if you do this, get a sponge filter for it) for your livebearers. Ghost cats would probably eat fry, and the mollies might even eat the fry of the smaller fish. This will let you split your stock up into smaller tanks, and cycle them all at once. Keep the bio-filter material from the other tanks in the main tank when they arent in service, so they keep bacteria up.

The most important rule for fish cycling is to pay close attention to your fish. If they are furiously swimming at the edges or show serious signs of stress, change some of the water. Even just a 10% change will make a difference to them, and then test to see if they need more.

Hope this helps,

C-Bull

 

[newfishmommy]

Thanks you were a big help.

Since my ghost catfish were the first ones I ever bought I am pretty sure they will not take them back now.

I do have a small 1 1/2 gal. tank but I think it is more for a betta or something. It only has an airstone, there is no thermometer, no filter (not sure how to add one to that) could this be used to remove the cats temporarily? Just until the tank is cycled. Could that be used to use for the other purposes of an extra tank needed?

 

[Ceramicbull]

I do have a small 1 1/2 gal. tank but I think it is more for a betta or something. It only has an airstone, there is no thermometer, no filter (not sure how to add one to that) could this be used to remove the cats temporarily? Just until the tank is cycled. Could that be used to use for the other purposes of an extra tank needed?

No. If you get it a sponge filter and small heater it might be able to be a small fry tank but it definately can't hold the ghost cats for longer than an hour. Betta's are peculiar because they are labyrinth fish, which means they can breath air and don't depend as much as most fish on good water conditions. That's why (in addition to their aggressiveness) you see the poor things in little blue cups at many pet stores. Your ghost cats need a good filter, you might do better to use the ghost cats and livebearers to cycle the 55G (best choice out of a whole lot of bad ones), use the 1.5 for medicating bubba and disco (still need a filter and heater). That's only if you CANNOT buy another larger 10-29G tank. Honestly, a 5g bucket from a hardware store with a heater and filter would be better for medication than the 1.5g if only for size. You would need to watch the smaller medical tank closly for ammonia because the size is so small. Fatalities are still highly likely in any of these scenarios.

All of these options involve a significant amount of extra expense.

I wouldn't give up on getting them to take the fish back, this is still by far the best option. They might not give you a full refund (or any) money back, and it wouldn't hurt to shop around to different stores. Explain that you goofed and took too many fish and need to offload some to get to a workable level, and your glass cats are too fragile to cycle with (and please be honest about the velvet). Even if you get no refund, there's a good chance you'd wind up losing less money than on more tanks, testing chemicals, equipment, etc; and the fish won't be dead.

One last warning is not to have any activated carbon in your filter(s) while medicating. The active ingredients will get absorbed into the filter and will just waste your money.

Good Luck,

C-Bull

 

[newfishmommy]

Thanks again