Dalmatian Mollies dying one by one

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Sexy Rexy

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Hi all,
My aquarium is about 4 months old. One of the first groups of fish included 6 Dalmatian Mollies. A few weeks ago I was noticing some of them were gone. Yesterday I discovered one that had died resting on top of some vegetation. This left me with only one remaining out of the original 6. All of the other fish are healthy and happy. Why would I start losing these fish?
 
Hi, Rexy. Tell us a bit more about your tank. How big is it? How is it set up? How is your water: Hardness, pH, ammonia, nitrite, nitrate? What other fish and plants do you have?

If we have more information we might be able to figure out the problem.
 
It’s possible you have a spike in ammonia. Do any of the fish have red on their bodies? Particularly near the gills?
 
Hi, Rexy. Tell us a bit more about your tank. How big is it? How is it set up? How is your water: Hardness, pH, ammonia, nitrite, nitrate? What other fish and plants do you have?

If we have more information we might be able to figure out the problem.
Hi WB,
The tank is 75 gallons with all water parameters in good range. The tank contains 2 angelfish, 6 black skirted tetras, 6 Buenos Aires tetras, 6 rosy tetras and a mix of 12 black and black/yellow mollies. I also have 3 different live aquatic plants although I couldn’t tell you what species. Gravel is vacuumed and 30% water change and conditioned every week to 10 days.
 
Hi WB,
The tank is 75 gallons with all water parameters in good range. The tank contains 2 angelfish, 6 black skirted tetras, 6 Buenos Aires tetras, 6 rosy tetras and a mix of 12 black and black/yellow mollies. I also have 3 different live aquatic plants although I couldn’t tell you what species. Gravel is vacuumed and 30% water change and conditioned every week to 10 days.
Do you know your exact water parameters? Do you have a test kit?
 
Hi WB,
The tank is 75 gallons with all water parameters in good range. The tank contains 2 angelfish, 6 black skirted tetras, 6 Buenos Aires tetras, 6 rosy tetras and a mix of 12 black and black/yellow mollies. I also have 3 different live aquatic plants although I couldn’t tell you what species. Gravel is vacuumed and 30% water change and conditioned every week to 10 days.
Forgot to mention that the water is a consistent 80 degreesF
 
I would turn the heater down a few clicks. Try to get it at 76F-78F.
 
Do you know your exact water parameters? Do you have a test kit?
Yes I do have a kit. The PH is 7.1, ammonia and nitrite is 0, nitrate is 23 ppm. My kit does not measure hardness but is softened with a water softener. All of the remaining fish have been healthy and very active.
 
Yes I do have a kit. The PH is 7.1, ammonia and nitrite is 0, nitrate is 23 ppm. My kit does not measure hardness but is softened with a water softener. All of the remaining fish have been healthy and very active.
Ok, you parameters seem good.

Will you please include pictures of the fish? (And possible pictures of the dead fish)

Have you added anything to the tank recently?
 
is softened with a water softener
There are two aspects to this.

Firstly mollies are hard water fish; they need hard water of over 250 ppm/14 dH. All your other fish are soft water fish.
Hard water fish have evolved to their bodies excrete most of the calcium they take in from the water. When they are kept in soft water, their bodies continue to excrete calcium but it not replaced as soft water has little calcium. This stresses the fish and they become sick more easily. This post by Byron explains it better than I can
Fish live in water, and their bodies contain water; the fish’s cells separate these two waters, but the cells are semi-permeable, which means the cell will permit the movement of water and certain non-polar molecules to pass through either way (called osmosis) but will prevent the passage of larger or charged molecules. The way the water moves is determined by the difference in concentrations between the two waters: water of higher concentration (more dense) will attempt to pass through to the water of lower concentration (less dense) until the two are equal. If the fish could not somehow control this natural flow, it would either rapidly dehydrate or explode. But fish are able to control this through osmoregulation, a complex series of chemical processes. The water moving in or out of the fish’s body will likely have a different pH, so another set of processes controls the function of regulating the pH of the fish’s blood (Muha, 2005). Both of these processes also affect the ability of the blood to carry oxygen, and this impacts many other functions including digestion, the immune system, and so on.

The kidneys primarily work to eliminate excess water, but another function is the conservation and reabsorption of essential salts. Both processes work to maintain a specific salt/water balance. This osmoregulation of bodily fluids requires a great amount of metabolic energy. So a high osmotic pressure (caused by elevated levels of TDS outside the fish’s natural range) will overwhelm the fish with excess water and overwork the kidneys, while a low osmotic pressure (caused by TDS levels below those of the fish’s natural range) will deprive the fish of the water needed for the kidney functions (Evans, 2004).

Water hardness is the measure of dissolved mineral salts in the water, a portion of the TDS (total dissolved solids). There are two basic types of hardness of importance to aquarists, termed general hardness (abbreviated GH) and carbonate hardness (abbreviated KH, from the German “karbon” [carbon]). The combined GH and KH is sometimes termed “total hardness,” but this is of less importance because the GH and KH individually impact the water in different ways. General Hardness is determined primarily by the minerals calcium and magnesium; GH is sometimes referred to as “permanent hardness” because it cannot be removed from water by boiling as can KH. Fish are directly impacted by GH and TDS; their growth, the transfer of nutrients and waste products through cell membranes, spawning (sperm transfer, egg fertility or hatching), and the proper functioning of internal organs such as the kidneys can all be affected.

Hard water species must have calcium and magnesium present in the water in order for their kidneys to function, and beyond that. They have no means of getting this except from the water entering their bodies. As this water passes through the kidneys, the process of osmoregulation determines how the water is processed. Mineral salts like the calcium are extracted by the kidneys. In hard water species these mineral salts are essential to the proper functioning of the internal processes that work continually to maintain the fish's equilibrium; without these minerals the fish slowly weakens and dies. In fishes evolved in soft water, the salts are "foreign substances" that the fish does not have the ability to deal with, simply because it was never designed to do so. Calcium builds up, blocking the kidneys, and the fish dies.

The fish's internal biological processes are governed by the environmental factors mentioned above. The fish must for example regulate the pH of its blood to equal that of the water in which it lives, ensure the tissues are fed, the immune system functions, etc. The fish's physiology depends upon factors determined by the environment. As soon as these factors are changed from what the fish is programmed and designed to use, it creates stress, but even more significantly, the fish must expend considerable energy attempting to "right" what is "wrong." And generally it cannot do this, at least not for long, or depending upon the degree of difference. This means the fish slowly weakens. Usually the severe failure of the immune system causes the fish to die from some disease or issue that it normally should have easily dealt with, but could not because of its weakened state. In all cases, should the fish somehow miraculously succeed in avoiding disease, it has been weakened to such a degree that it can no longer support life processes and it dies, prematurely. There are no external signs of any of this, until the fish dies. Necropsy (autopsy in animals) can determine exactly which process failed.



The second thing is the type of water softener. Many water softeners work by exchanging the hardness minerals (calcium and magnesium) for sodium. A lot of sodium in the water is not good for fish as they have not evolved to deal with water which contains it. If this type of water softener is installed, it is better to mix RO water with the tap water from the bypass tap.
 
It’s possible you have a spike in ammonia. Do any of the fish have red on their bodies? Particularly near the gills?
Ok, you parameters seem good.

Will you please include pictures of the fish? (And possible pictures of the dead fish)

Have you added anything to the tank recently?
Ok, you parameters seem good.

Will you please include pictures of the fish? (And possible pictures of the dead fish)

Have you added anything to the tank
Ok, you parameters seem good.

Will you please include pictures of the fish? (And possible pictures of the dead fish)

Have you added anything to the tank recently?
There are two aspects to this.

Firstly mollies are hard water fish; they need hard water of over 250 ppm/14 dH. All your other fish are soft water fish.
Hard water fish have evolved to their bodies excrete most of the calcium they take in from the water. When they are kept in soft water, their bodies continue to excrete calcium but it not replaced as soft water has little calcium. This stresses the fish and they become sick more easily. This post by Byron explains it better than I can




The second thing is the type of water softener. Many water softeners work by exchanging the hardness minerals (calcium and magnesium) for sodium. A lot of sodium in the water is not good for fish as they have not evolved to deal with water which contains it. If this type of water softener is installed, it is better to mix RO water with the tap water from the bypass tap.
So mollies prefer soft water and my others water that is somewhat harder? I’m certainly not questioning that but why does all of the information I’ve gathered about tropical fish say that the fish can coexist? Do I need to somehow condition the water to a happy medium between hardness and softness and if so, how do I do that?
 
So mollies prefer soft water and my others water that is somewhat harder
It's the other way round, mollies are hard water fish but all your other fish are soft water fish.

There is no happy medium I'm afraid. If you harden the water for the mollies, the soft water fish will suffer. Soft water fish have evolved to hang on to the minerals in the water and if the water is too hard, they continue to hang on the minerals and get calcium deposits in their organs.
Your only realistic options are to rehome the mollies, or get another tank for them and use water that has not gone through the water softener.

why does all of the information I’ve gathered about tropical fish say that the fish can coexist?
That depends where you looked. Many books and websites are written by people who do not understand the importance of hardness to fish. Sites like Seriously Fish list the hardness range needed in every fish profile and we should aim to keep fish which have similar hardness needs to our tap water (or softened water).
If it was the fish store that told you they were compatible, you need to bear in mind that few fish store workers have any realistic knowledge about fish. Most of them are trained only in how to make a sale.
 
So mollies prefer soft water and my others water that is somewhat harder? I’m certainly not questioning that but why does all of the information I’ve gathered about tropical fish say that the fish can coexist? Do I need to somehow condition the water to a happy medium between hardness and softness and if so, how do I do that?
The other way around. Mollies prefer hard water. Captive-bred fish with differing needs can often coexist in medium-ish water, but obviously something has gone wrong, and since your tank seems otherwise very healthy, water hardness is a possible source of the problem.

Is it possible that there are aggression issues with the angelfish? Angels can get weird about whom they pick fights with, sometimes.

It is also possible that you got some inbred or otherwise low-quality stock. I don't jump to blame problems on that, but it happens. If the fish are unhealthy to begin with, sometimes they up and die even if you're doing everything right.

edit: Essjay beat me to it. Gotta be quick around here.
 
Ok, you parameters seem good.

Will you please include pictures of the fish? (And possible pictures of the dead fish)

Have you added anything to the tank
It's the other way round, mollies are hard water fish but all your other fish are soft water fish.

There is no happy medium I'm afraid. If you harden the water for the mollies, the soft water fish will suffer. Soft water fish have evolved to hang on to the minerals in the water and if the water is too hard, they continue to hang on the minerals and get calcium deposits in their organs.
Your only realistic options are to rehome the mollies, or get another tank for them and use water that has not gone through the water softener.


That depends where you looked. Many books and websites are written by people who do not understand the importance of hardness to fish. Sites like Seriously Fish list the hardness range needed in every fish profile and we should aim to keep fish which have similar hardness needs to our tap water (or softened water).
If it was the fish store that told you they were compatible, you need to bear in mind that few fish store workers have any realistic knowledge about fish. Most of them are trained only in how to make a sale.
Yeah, my mistake. Mixed up the two.
 
The other way around. Mollies prefer hard water. Captive-bred fish with differing needs can often coexist in medium-ish water, but obviously something has gone wrong, and since your tank seems otherwise very healthy, water hardness is a possible source of the problem.

Is it possible that there are aggression issues with the angelfish? Angels can get weird about whom they pick fights with, sometimes.

It is also possible that you got some inbred or otherwise low-quality stock. I don't jump to blame problems on that, but it happens. If the fish are unhealthy to begin with, sometimes they up and die even if you're doing everything right.

edit: Essjay beat me to it. Gotta be quick around here.
Yeah, I’ve read that about angelfish but they tend to stay semi-solitary and get along well with the other fish. Since the deaths have all been to the Dalmatian mollies, I’ll keep an eye on the others. They’ve thrived for over 4 months now so I might, at least for now, write the issue off as being a bad stock.
 

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