Cycling With Fish And Seeded Media

[Squeegeatc]

I think i need to disagree with you, RMS.   If that is the case, I should just add more fish.  Then the ammonia-water ratio would also be higher.  And everything I read says that is a bad bad idea. 
 
But I will ignore the LFS.  Too many people giving conflicting advice over there.  As to the "Take his keys/wallet/cards"  HAHAHAH   I wish it were that easy.   But he has to work!!  I think he may calm down now that HIS fish are in the tank.  And I've pormised him more of those darn neons before getting the fish that I want.   He picked out about 4 other kinds of fish at the store Saturday, and only wants to get 2 or 3 of each.  Watching his 5 neons hide, I think he finally realizes that there is safety in numbers.  He will really see that when we get more of them.
 
water parameters remain unchanged. 

 

[eaglesaquarium]

The fact that the filter was already running on the 10 means you are starting with SOME amount of bacteria at the beginning.  The larger volume will keep the ammonia levels less dangerous for a longer time, giving you more time to catch the problem and correct it with a water change.
 
 
Let's do a quick mathematical example... let's assume for a second your fish were creating sufficient ammonia in the 10 gallon tank for the concentration to go to 1ppm daily.  That same output of ammonia by the fish in the larger tank 50 gallons (approximated to keep the numbers simpler) will only be 0.20 ppm daily.
 
 
 
And if your bacteria in the 10 gallon are able to 'eat' that level of ammonia in the 10, they will also be able to handle it in the 50.  But, I doubt they would.  So, having the larger volume allows the ammonia levels to be lower (and safer) while the bacteria grow to deal with the ammonia levels. 
 
 
 
Incidentally, 1ppm ammonia (on the API Kit) measures as 2.7 ppm nitrite when fully converted (because the API kit measure the ION, not the nitrogen atoms).  You will doubtlessly have SOME of the bacteria responsible for the nitrite conversion to nitrate, but again, probably not enough to do the full job right away, although you might not see nitrite for a while, as the ammonia bacs and nitrite bacs are probably in decent proportion from the 10 gallon, but as the extra fish will outproduce ammonia processed, you'll get a bit of an ammonia spike first, and then a nitrite spike next.  These should be smaller than starting a fish-in cycle from scratch, but will still show up.
 
 
Keep us posted on the ammonia, nitrite, ph and temp data and we can help see you get all the fish through this process with the least amount of stress on them and you.

 

[TwoTankAmin]

Its 2.55 ppm of nitrite for each ppm of ammonia. Atomic weights as follows:
 
NH4 =
N = 14.070      = 14.070
0 =   1.008 x 4 =   4.032
    Total            = 18.102
 
NO2 =
N = 14.070       = 14.070
O = 15.999 x 2 = 31.998
    Total             = 46.068
 
46.068/18.0102 = 2.5449 but some part of the ammonia is NH3 which = 17.094. and that is enough to get 2.5449 to 2.55

 

[rms]

I think i need to disagree with you, RMS.   If that is the case, I should just add more fish.  Then the ammonia-water ratio would also be higher.  And everything I read says that is a bad bad idea. 
 

 
It's not quite the same as adding more fish Adding fish will increase the amount of ammonia, as you said, but it won't speed up the flow of water running through your filter. Emptying half the tank will do both, and so will speed up the colony growth and remove the ammonia more quickly. That along with the right amount of testing and water changes would speed up your cycle without increasing the fish's discomfort. In the end though you should do what you think is best  

 

[eaglesaquarium]

Its 2.55 ppm of nitrite for each ppm of ammonia. Atomic weights as follows:

 
46.068/18.0102 = 2.5449 but some part of the ammonia is NH3 which = 17.094. and that is enough to get 2.5449 to 2.55

 
 
I should have recalculated it rather than rely on my failing memory.

 

[sawickib]

Its 2.55 ppm of nitrite for each ppm of ammonia. Atomic weights as follows:
 
NH4 =
N = 14.070      = 14.070
0 =   1.008 x 4 =   4.032
    Total            = 18.102
 
NO2 =
N = 14.070       = 14.070
O = 15.999 x 2 = 31.998
    Total             = 46.068
 
46.068/18.0102 = 2.5449 but some part of the ammonia is NH3 which = 17.094. and that is enough to get 2.5449 to 2.55

O.O

 

[eaglesaquarium]

The API test kit (and many others) measure the 'PPM' (parts per million) as a rough estimate of mg/L (milligrams per liter).  Since they are measuring the mass of the ENTIRE ion, not just the nitrogen, the different ions have different masses and therefore different 'ppm'.  Its not a straight 1-1-1 ratio, as it would be if they were measuring the NITROGEN only.
 
1 molecule of ammonia (NH3) or ammonium (NH4) has a mass of 17g or 18g, respectively.
 
1 molecule of nitrite (NO2) and the end result of the oxidizing process completed by the bacteria has a molecular mass of 46g.
 
 
So, while its still just a single 'nitrogen' atom and its 'friends' that are being dealt with by the bacteria, the way it shows up on the test kits is very different.  One nitrogen atom in ammonia gets displayed at 2.6 nitrogen atoms on the nitrite test (or so it would seem) because of the different masses involved (hydrogen being so much lighter than oxygen).

 

[Squeegeatc]

I see your point, RMS.  As far as you Chemical Engineers....WOW!  LOL   Totally beyond me. 
 
I will continue testing ammonia 2x a day. And will adjust accordingly.  I think it's odd that the test strips shows a trace amount of nitrate, and no nitrite.  Wish i could afford the rest of the vials.  Slowly.....slowly.

 

[TwoTankAmin]

RMS is incorrect in what he suggested. PPM is a measure of concentration. It is the concentration of ammonia that determines how toxic it is.
 
Similarly, the total amount of ammonia at any given concentration is more the more gallons there are.
 
Now relative to cycling the second fact ignores the third fact. The third fact has to do the amount of bacteria present out of ones tap when one starts to cycle. There will so mucj bacteria per gallon or liter in ones tap water.In effect the concentration of bacteria on a 10 gal tank will be the same as in a 50 gallon tank. But the total amount of bacteria will be10 times greater in the 50 than the 10 just as the total amount of ammonia will be greater in the 50 than the 10. Of course this assumes fishless cycling or else, if using fish in, one will start with 10 times the bio-load of fish in the 50 as the 10. It as all basically a wash.
 
That is why it takes pretty much the same amount of time to cycle big or small tanks when  following the same methodology in both. To speed up a cycle, seed the tank with  bacteria.

 

[Squeegeatc]

Yesterday and today shows a significant increase in ammonia.  Up to almost 1.0ppm today.   Yesterday it was .5ppm.  No sign of nitrites, and still a touch of nitrates.  That gives me some hope.   at least some of bacteria 2 is doing it's job.  Now to increase more of bacteria 1.   Temp is 78 and PH is 8.2   I will be removing 12 gallons as soon as I'm off.  Hopefully, this helps.  I see a lot of daily WCs in the next few days.

 

[eaglesaquarium]

http/www.hamzasreef.com/Contents/Calculators/FreeAmmonia.php
 
Use this calculator to help you determine the true danger level of the ammonia.  You need to keep the 'NH3' levels below 0.05ppm, that's when it becomes increasingly toxic.  At a pH as high as yours, the ammonia-ammonium ratio is higher than at lower pH, and its a bit more dangerous for the fish.
 
12 gallons out of 55 is a nice idea, but that's <25%.. which will not decrease ammonia below the toxic level, lowering the dangerous ammonia (NH3) from nearly 0.09 to only 0.0675.  You will need to do at least a 50% change to make it habitable... but a larger amount will give you a bit more time before the next water change is required and keep the conditions more habitable.  (Water changes will not remove bacteria, it will only remove dangerous toxins.)  You want the ammonium levels as high as possible to speed up the growth of the bacterial colony, but as low as possible to keep the fish alive.  Delicate balance really...  I'd recommend a 75% change.  Based on your pH and temp, the highest I'd allow the ammonia (total, as measured by API test kit) would be 0.5ppm, as at that level with your conditions, the NH3 will be at 0.438 ppm... high, but not deadly.
 
The 75% change will bring the total ammonia back down to 0.25 ppm and the dangerous NH3 down to 0.0219ppm, which will leave the bacteria something to munch, but also give the fish some much needed relief.
 
(This is why we are so ardent about fishless cycling... far easier on the mind and the body.)

 

[rms]

RMS is incorrect in what he suggested. PPM is a measure of concentration. It is the concentration of ammonia that determines how toxic it is.
 
Similarly, the total amount of ammonia at any given concentration is more the more gallons there are.
 
Now relative to cycling the second fact ignores the third fact. The third fact has to do the amount of bacteria present out of ones tap when one starts to cycle. There will so mucj bacteria per gallon or liter in ones tap water.In effect the concentration of bacteria on a 10 gal tank will be the same as in a 50 gallon tank. But the total amount of bacteria will be10 times greater in the 50 than the 10 just as the total amount of ammonia will be greater in the 50 than the 10. Of course this assumes fishless cycling or else, if using fish in, one will start with 10 times the bio-load of fish in the 50 as the 10. It as all basically a wash.
 
That is why it takes pretty much the same amount of time to cycle big or small tanks when  following the same methodology in both. To speed up a cycle, seed the tank with  bacteria.

 
II thought the concentration would increase as the same amount of ammonia from the fish would be released into a smaller volume of water, and so increase the ppm. I understand what you're saying about a particular volume of water containing bacteria will still measure identical ppm regardless of what size the volume is, but I don't understand how the same amount of bacteria in a 10g will have the same ppm in a 50g. To me that sounds like the same amount of household ammonia is required to measure 3ppm in any size tank. That's clearly not the case. I think I missed something maybe 

 

[TwoTankAmin]

You missed my point rms. Lets say when you turn on your tap and take out one gallon there are 100 bacteria in that gallon. If you use 2 gallons, there are 200 and so on. Now, fill up two tanks. a 10 gal and a 50 gal. The small tank has 1,000 bacteria and the large one has 5,000. Both tank have 100 bacteria per gallon still.
 
Now prepare an ammonia dose sufficient to get each tank to 3 ppm. using a 9.5% ammonia solution the 10 gal tank get 1.2 ml and the 50 gal. gets 5.98. This is basically 5 times as much as the 10. So from the outset two things do not change- 100 bacteria/gal. and the 3 ppm concentration of ammonia.
 
Now lets suppose we take only fill the tank 1/2 way, this means we would have only 1/2 the bacteria to start. No matter how much ammonia is dosed, as long as it isn't too much, the amount of time it will take to build the bacteria to the number to handle it will be that much longer. While the concentration of ammonia will determine the ultimate capacity of the bacteria that will colonize, it is the number of bacteria at the outset that will determine how long that it will take to reach those numbers.
 
There is no difference between lowering the water by 50% or increasing the ammonia concentration by 50%. The big danger is too much ammonia stalls the cycle.
 
Another way to put this is its like trying to cycle a 10 gal tank to handle a 50 gallon bio-load. That would require that 10 gallon tank be able to process 15 ppm of ammonia.

 

[Squeegeatc]

I did the 12 gallon change at 8am and retested just now at 2pm.   It is back to 0.25.  I havn't tested nitrites or Nitrates yet...I only do that 1x a day right now.  With a 55 Gallon tank, and 4 gallon bucket, I'd rather do smaller changes daily if it works. 
 
And I understand the fish in vs fishless cycling.   If you managed to see anything I posted, you will see that I'm dang lucky I don't have 50 flipping fish in here!  LFS has husband convinced that throwing chemicals at it is just as safe as being patient.  He wanted to just stock the tank fully and throw the ammonia reducer stuff seachem sells in there.

 

[rms]

You missed my point rms. Lets say when you turn on your tap and take out one gallon there are 100 bacteria in that gallon. If you use 2 gallons, there are 200 and so on. Now, fill up two tanks. a 10 gal and a 50 gal. The small tank has 1,000 bacteria and the large one has 5,000. Both tank have 100 bacteria per gallon still.
 
Now prepare an ammonia dose sufficient to get each tank to 3 ppm. using a 9.5% ammonia solution the 10 gal tank get 1.2 ml and the 50 gal. gets 5.98. This is basically 5 times as much as the 10. So from the outset two things do not change- 100 bacteria/gal. and the 3 ppm concentration of ammonia.
 
Now lets suppose we take only fill the tank 1/2 way, this means we would have only 1/2 the bacteria to start. No matter how much ammonia is dosed, as long as it isn't too much, the amount of time it will take to build the bacteria to the number to handle it will be that much longer. While the concentration of ammonia will determine the ultimate capacity of the bacteria that will colonize, it is the number of bacteria at the outset that will determine how long that it will take to reach those numbers.
 
There is no difference between lowering the water by 50% or increasing the ammonia concentration by 50%. The big danger is too much ammonia stalls the cycle.
 
Another way to put this is its like trying to cycle a 10 gal tank to handle a 50 gallon bio-load. That would require that 10 gallon tank be able to process 15 ppm of ammonia.

 
I got it 

 
Apologies for the miss-information squeegeatc, and for the mini hijack.