Cycling Question

KatienDavid

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We are not really new to the hobby we have a 40 gal hex and a 55 gal. But tomorrow we are picking up a 200 gallon :D . So we are excited about it but want to know how long by guesstimation that you guys think it will take for it to cycle. Is there any way to make it go faster by using like gravel, filters or something from our other tanks that are already cycled? Thanks!

-Katie and David
 
We are not really new to the hobby we have a 40 gal hex and a 55 gal. But tomorrow we are picking up a 200 gallon :D . So we are excited about it but want to know how long by guesstimation that you guys think it will take for it to cycle. Is there any way to make it go faster by using like gravel, filters or something from our other tanks that are already cycled? Thanks!

-Katie and David

Others more experianced will come along I'm sure, but as I understand it if you use your filter from one of your other tanks with the same fish in the big tank yuo would not have to cycyle it at all. However if you are keeping both of your other tanks, the cycle can be done alot quicker if you remove some media from your filters and place into the new filter and cycle. guesstimations are just that a guess. Cycles take from a couple of weeks to months. Mine took just under 2 months. I'm sure that it would have been a hell of a lot quicker if I had some established filter media and gravel and the like to add to the tank. :nod:

Most people once they have a cycled tank just chuck the established filter alongside the new filter on the new tanks to seed the new filter.

CHEERS
Thommo
 
Cycling a nice new tank is a frustrating time. Once it is set up you just want to fill it with fish, I know. You can probably shorten a fishless cycle to about a week or less by using a good sized piece of the old filter media in the new filter. Another approach that works pretty well is to get the new tank running with a filter on it and then clean the old filter in the new tank's water. The bacteria that always get knocked off the old filter media during a good cleaning end up in the new one and set up shop there. If you are a little more patient, you can just connect the new filter to one of the existing tanks for a few weeks, then move it back to the new tank when ready to stock that tank. The new filter will have picked up a bacterial colony while sitting on the mature tank.
 
as the new tank is considerably bigger than the existing ones I don't think you could colonise it sufficiently for a full load of fish by running it on the existing tank for a couple of weeks. cycling is a supply and demand process, the filter would only grow enough bacteria to support the load of fish in the existing tank and that would spreadh acorss the two filters so when you moved the filter over to the new big tank it'd then be able to support maybe 25 gallons worth of fish if that makes sense!

What I'd do is take some media from each of your existing tanks, you can safely take one third from each of your existing filters which will give you a good starting point. Then do a fishless cycle as normal adding ammonia daily but you'll find it's more like 4-6 days than the usual 4-6 weeks that we expect for a fishless cycle.
 
Thanks everyone for the answers. Well I am happy that it isn't going to take as long as we expected. We are going to get the tank tonight, in a couple hours actually and clean it all down. Oh which is another question I don't think the guy before us took very good care of it so it looks a little dirty, what is the best thing to clean out a tank with? And I know this may be a funny question to some of you but I honestly just don't know so here it is what is filter media? Is it like the filter pad or what? I am just not sure. Thanks again!

- Just Katie this time :) Davids at work haha.
 
Yes, filter media is all the stuff you put inside filter boxes. Its an important consideration prior to starting fishless cycling because if you get it right prior to this then your new bacterial colonies will be populating the right stuff and you won't lose them like you would if you used the wrong media and wanted to change it later.

The most common media types that are given by manufacturers which hobbyists later want to change out are carbon and zeolite. Carbon is great stuff to have on the shelf but is not needed in the normal day-to-day running of your filter. Its good for removing meds, yellow tannins from bogwood or unusual organic smells. In each case its good for about 3 days and then is ready to be trashed. So carbon should be replaced with biomedia like sponges, ceramic rings, ceramic pebbles or bioballs.

Zeolite is a white pebble-like media (usually) and is used to chemically remove ammonia. Sounds great, right? Who needs ammonia? Well, unfortunately your bacteria need ammonia to eat and if you use zeolite they won't get enough and won't develop. Then when the zeolite is used up, the ammonia will skyrocket and kill your fish. Zeolite has a place in fishkeeping, being put to good use in exotic planted tanks where experts are able to keep large beautiful plant populations constantly alive, but its not usually the right choice for the average beginner I'd say.

Filter media has three functions: mechanical, chemical and biological. Mechanical filtration is the common one most people think of. Its catching the little debris particles in the water. Almost all media helps with this function. Chemical filtration is optional, like the carbon discussed above. Biomedia provides the biological function of providing surfaces that our two species of autotrophic bacteria can grow on. The bacteria look like brown stains on the media and along with the trapped debris, it all looks like dirt. But its hard-won and very valuable. Be sure your media is always squeezed/swished in -tank- water, not tap water. The same chlorine/chloramine that kills bacteria dangerous for people will kill (well, potentially kill) the autotrophs you are working so hard to raise!

Hope this helps get you started. :)

~~waterdrop~~
 
Hi thank you for letting me know. I am using the filter media from my other filters and adding ammonia to the water. I just did it tonight so hopefully it will get the process started. What is the best filter for a 200 gallon tank? Just wondering what everyone's opinions are. We have filters on it right now but we will need a bigger better filter or two.

Thanks bunches,
Katie and David :good:
 
For a tank that size, I would go for a Rena XP4. In case you haven't figured it out, I love my Rena filters.
 
If you're going to change filters, its best of course to do that prior to fishless cycling because its the filter media that you are "cycling." In your case though you do have the option of half-stocking the 200 and working up one new filter at a time while the other handles the fish load and provides the seeding of the newer filter. The hardware section members could get more detailed but I'd assume having two big filters would be a more ideal arrangement for a large tank like that, assuming you're going to go with external cannisters and not a sump filter (a sump filter being a box, often in the cabinet below the tank that's like a smaller aquarium itself in size and holds potentially an even larger volume of media than the cannisters would. Larger media volume is what makes for better filtration, other things being equal.)

~~waterdrop~~
 
Ok thanks for the help. I work for a "large" pet store and we have quite a few filters, some of them being rena's. The largest one we sell I think is a canister filter and it does something like 265 gallons. I was thinking about getting that and then keeping the 90 back filter we have right now. It's just a filter that you hang over the back of your aquarium. It has bio wheels though. I have never used one of those before, what does everyone think of them? It is a emperor 400. Is it good or better to have filtration higher then what you need? I figured it couldn't hurt anything. Oh and I just wanted to add that I love this forum because where I work it has helped me a lot of times. I use a lot of the great information I get from here and pass it on to customers at work. I do also like the pet store I work for. We take very good care of the animals and fish. We also aren't out to just push fish onto people we have rules we have to tell them for like how many fish they should add to a fish tank and all that stuff. We tell them about cycling and how it works and we have the right to refuse selling something if we think it is just going to go home to its death. Like for example if someone was going to buy a large oscar and try to stick it in a five gallon. Which is actually a true story. Some lady got mad at me when I told her no. That it would kill the fish and was trying to explain how large they got and she just was having nothing of it. She even spoke to the store director and he told her no also. So I am glad that we take care of everything. Even the bettas :). We change their water 2x a week and feed them every day. They are all really healthy and pretty. Anyways went off topic, what do you guys think of the filters?

-Katie (Davids at work again haha)
 
Hi Katie,

Its my opinion that one of the first and toughest decisions you have to make about a filter is what flow rate you're going to go for. When I first came here it was a shock to find out that many filters that claim to handle a certain size of tank are really felt to be not adequate by the enthusiasts here. Come to find out, the manufacturers will often have two separate specifications listed on their filter, one that say what size tank the consider it to handle and a different one that says what the flow rate is. The most common advice I found here on TFF was that 5x turnover was the recommended number, more or less the minimum recommended. That's the system turnover, so for your 200g you'd need to turn over 1000 gallons per hour. In practice of course, the manufacturers push the way the numbers are given to the limit, so a published flow rate is going to be a bit of an exaggeration and you'd want your numbers showing above a 1000 even to be really getting the 1000 if that makes sense. Note that most hardware is going to be quoted in liters per hour, so 1000 US gallons is a huge flow rate.

But the worst is yet to come. I later came to realize that the 5x turnover guideline was mostly given out for the fish side of things and come to find out, the planted tank members are quite the renegades and hardly blink at having 10x turnover! Now that's practically a separate hobby, to be as focused on the plants as that, but I thought I'd throw it out there so you and David wouldn't feel like you'd never been told. The advantage they are looking for with all that flow is to not allow any tiny dead pockets that don't have water movement, which would allow slighly higher (still not measurable by our kits, but nonetheless slightly higher) ammonia levels to occur at those spots, which would promote algae and would allow excess food to settle, also promoting elevated ammonia spots. Now, to put this in perspective, remember that these are the extremes of fancy planted tanks, so if you are looking to mostly the tropical fish side of things and don't want to explore this other side of things then its your choice not to worry about those high numbers.

OK, so that takes care of flow rate. Next up is media volume. Regardless of flow rate, every filter box is a fixed size and therefor has a certain media volume. A sponge the size of a gallon milk jug is larger than one the size of a child's glass. Rather than specifically measure media volume, we usually go with just knowing some generalizations. Media volume, from bottom to top, in major types of filters goes as follows usually: internal filters, then HOB (hang on back or "power") filters, then external cannisters, then finally "sump" filters. Undergravel filters (UGFs) are a special case, usable by the experienced, but I think they are way out of date technology for beginners, so I'll not describe them. Sumps are a bit more of an expert tool, requiring more setup knowledge usually, so I'll leave them out too. This leaves HOBs vs. external cannisters and usually its pretty safe to say that external cannister filters will have quite a bit more media volume than HOBs, allowing for much larger and more stable biofilter media.

OK, so what about ease of use? Well, its a pretty close call between HOBs and ECs (external cannisters) as either can be lifted away from the aquarium for a cleaning session with about the same amount of trouble or ease. ECs in the larger sizes have their hoses coming in to hose adapters that have quick release levers and adjustable flow controls. A couple of advantages of ECs is that they have the edge on silence, having no water noise unless you choose to agitate the surface a lot with your spraybar and they also allow a length of hose where an inline heater can be spliced to keep this function out of the tank. No heater in the tank makes for a nicer underwater scene. Most ECs also have multiple trays with handles for easy removal of each media type during cleaning.

TFF has happy users of all the major EC brands: Eheim, Rena, Tetratec and Fluval. One of the advantages of getting two of the same size and type is that you can just buy sets of supplies that are the same for backup or whatever. Having two filters on a big tank is nice because you can always clean them alternately and never experience a mini-spike in your ammonia and nitrite levels because of a cleaning. Ceramic rings, ceramic gravel, coarse sponges, fine sponges and floss are the typical media loads for these filters. They usually need cleaning once a month or much less and except for the floss, the media often lasts almost forever without replacement.

Well, I guess that's it for the latest installment of your filter book :lol: ... hope someone else reads it too after all the typing!

~~waterdrop~~ :)
 
if you get into the salty side of life 20x turnover is considered pretty much essential. so 5x is really nothing to write home about.

your tank is 740 litres, so times that by 5 and you want a turnover of 3700lph

as WD pointed out the manufacturers suggestions for how many lph their filters can do is somewhat optomistic, it's like the mpg on a car, yeah downhill with no luggage and a tailwind you might hit the manufacturers suggestion, but most of the time you won't.

So you want to turn over 3700lph going by manufacturers recommendations as an absolute minimum, i think you should actually look to get closer to 4500lph.

I would also recommend you achieve this through at least two seperate filters, then you've got a bit of back up if one of them fails as does happen from time to time.
 
I'm going to go out on a limb here. I do not care about the flow rates on my filters. If I want lots of water flow in my tank, the way plant extremists do, I set up a power head or two and make darned sure there are no dead spots. My filter flow must be enough to keep water flowing through the media and allow the bacteria on the media to consume all of my ammonia and nitrites. The particulate that is light enough to be a problem with water clarity will be pulled through the filter eventually and, if the filter media is good at removing it, it will be removed. Chemical media, when you decide to use it, needs enough flow to get proper contact between what you are trying to remove and the chemical media. What I consider essential is filter media volume. The more room there is for media in the filter, the more that can be done with the filter. Take this to its logical extreme and think about having a 4000 litre per hour power head stuck into a sponge filter. The flow would be terrific but the filter would basically only be good for loading up with particulate. Contact time for biological filtration would be negligible and it would have no chemical properties at all. The plant folks would be happy because there would be lots of flow to keep the conditions throughout the tank consistent. Take the other extreme, where I actually usually operate. I run an XP3 on a 120 US gallon tank. Using MW's formula and actual flows, I am probably at about 2x in my tank. The filter has a huge volume that I fill with mostly bio media and a little bit of mechanical media. The tank has run with this setup for about 5 years now with no water quality problems at all. The flow is not high enough to keep extra food from settling on the bottom of the tank so I have to gravel vac to remove any excess food that I have used. The water is clear at all times and the tank chemistry is stable. When I want to cycle a new filter, I often put it on this tank for a couple of weeks. When the new cycled filter is removed, I do not see a mini-cycle because the bacterial colony in my filter is very well established and resilient.
 
yup, large flow rate is certainly not the only factor, if you have a significant media volume that also helps. But it's a good guide if you just want to buy 'standard' filters and know they are up to the job. :good:
 
Hi,
Wow I know it's been a while but we have been busy. The new tank is almost completely cycled, which is exciting and we are expecting to have 3 different filters on it. We have looked into your advice and thank you all greatly for taking the time to help us out. We will update you all with info and maybe a few more questions. When everything is set and ready maybe we will add some pictures of our new big baby haha. Thanks again!

Katie and David :good:
 

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