Cycling: Nitrites vs. Nitrates

[sef]

Hi,
Sorry to have so many questions here! But I'm a little confused by what someone has told me, and would like some help.

Horatio's 5-gallon tank has been cycling for 2 weeks, and I have been doing frequent partial water changes (every 3 days; 1 gallon or less at a time). His ammonia has been at zero now, and I tested his nitrites 2 days ago and they are also at 0. Doesn't this mean that the tank has successfully cycled? Someone told me it is too soon for the tank to have cycled and to be seeing no nitrites.

I have not checked the nitrate level yet.

I'm using bottled water (our tap tested with high ammonia); we have a regular power filter on the back of the tank, set for very low flow. There is about 1/2" gravel on the bottom, which I have been careful not to disturb during partial changes.

Have I done something wrong in the cycling? Does the zero nitrates this soon just mean that they haven't spiked yet?

Confused!

 

[Jamnog]

i think it depends if you started with bacteria allready in the tank or gravel it does go down before it goes up but with those water changes you have little to fear imo. see what the others have to say but i would say carry on with 20% water changes each week and dont panic too much i presume your keeping fish that cost less than £/$10 each im shure they are hardy enough to live through any thing thats going to happen while. are the fish in the tank?? anyway i would suggest that instead of pouring in the water try syphoning it into the tank as it will cause less of a disturbance. oh and relax a little bit B)

 

[dolphin]

Hi Sef

As the water you started with had ammonia in it, (i asume that you did not start this tank with bottled water) you tank may have cycled quicker than normal, as the bacteria had food in the tank to begin with.

Two weeks is a little early for cycling, but you should see nitrite levels rise, as the ammonia level drops. The nitrite level starts to rise before the ammonia hits zero.

You should continue to check the nitrite levels, and test for nitrate.

 

[sef]

Yes, I did start with tap water -- which already had quite a bit of ammonia in it (which was shocking to me; no wonder the water tastes bad!).

Also, I have a live plant in the tank.

The single fish in the aquarium is a male Betta.

Honestly, I didn't start testing for nitrites until 2 days ago, because the LFS owner didn't bother to tell me that I needed to do that! So I had been happily testing for ammonia and watching it carefully, without understanding that nitrites were also an issue. Then I panicked and bought the nitrite kit, only to find that the water tested at 0 for nitrites.

So I guess what I need to do at this point is test every couple of days to see if the nitrites remain the same or go up or down, right? And it sounds like I will also need a nitrate test kit.

Dang, you almost need a degree in chemistry to keep up with all of this!

Thanks -- and, I will try to take your advice Jamnog and relax a bit!

 

[dolphin]

Hi Sef

Yes a degree in chemistre help's. LOL

The nitrogen cycle is easy to understand.

Ammonia is produced by the fish, (as in your case, it can all ready be in your water). This is then converted to nitrite, by bacteria in your filter, and tank. The nitrite is then converted to Nitrate, again by bacteria, different bacteria than the ammionia converters.
Nitrates are the final product of this part of the nitrogen cycle.

Nitrates are removed from the water by plants, partial water changes, and if you have on fitted an nitrate filter. These use anairobic bacteria to convert the nitrate to nitrogen gas. These are not normally seen on most hobby tanks.

HTH

 

[HooDude]

Hi there,

I would be cautious about your nitrate level so far. You did start with water high in ammonia, and it is true that that would help jumpstart the nitrate cycle. However, the nitrobacters (bacteria that convert ammonia) are present in the water, gravel, and filter. By changing the water, and especially by siphoning the gravel, you are removing those bacteria, and slowing your tank's progress.

It could be that you have stopped the nitrate cycle by cleaning out all of your ammonia ridden water and replacing it with bottled water, and now because you only have one fish and are continuing the water changes, the cycle is going no where.

I usually leave the water in my tank when I do a nitrate cycle, and only begin water changes when the bacteria colony has become established. In theory this would leave more ammonia in the water, more bacteria would remain, and the cycle would progress faster.

Keep your eyes open and keep watching your tank over the next few weeks. I wouldn't be surprised if your nitrates begin to climb.


Just my 2 cents

HooDude
-The Petcetera Guy

 

[sef]

HooDude,

Thanks. I see that I wrote in my original message, "Have I done something wrong in the cycling? Does the zero nitrates this soon just mean that they haven't spiked yet?" I meant nitrItes; not nitrates. ) Sorry about that!

The water changes that I've done so far have been about 20% when ammonia levels rose (not wanting to harm my Betta). Are you saying that this may be screwing up the cycling process? Or do you think this is okay?

Also, I haven't siphoned the gravel -- in fact, I've made a point of leaving it totally alone during this time. The ammonia and nitrite levels have been registering at zero lately.

Just trying to get a handle on all of this. Horatio seems to be doing okay (in fact, he is starting a major construction project of a bubblenest!), so I'm keeping my fingers crossed that all is well.

sef

 

[William]

Does the zero nitrates this soon just mean that they haven't spiked yet?" I meant nitrItes; not nitrates. ) Sorry about that!

The water changes that I've done so far have been about 20% when ammonia levels rose (not wanting to harm my Betta). Are you saying that this may be screwing up the cycling process? Or do you think this is okay?

Also, I haven't siphoned the gravel -- in fact, I've made a point of leaving it totally alone during this time. The ammonia and nitrite levels have been registering at zero lately.

Just trying to get a handle on all of this. Horatio seems to be doing okay (in fact, he is starting a major construction project of a bubblenest!), so I'm keeping my fingers crossed that all is well.

sef

First off welcome hoodude, I've just read your first two posts, have to say I'm pretty impressed, also welcome sef to the forum, haven't seen you around before

The nitrIte spike simply means that you are in the second stage of the nitrate cycle. IF the nitrItes are over one then you'll need to do the 20% water change like what you did when you had ammonia, this may well prolong the cycling process by a few days however the benefits are you will not lose any fish.

Leaving the gravel is fine, you don't want to disrupt the many nitrifying bacteria which live there, the main reason for siphoning the gravel is when the tank has been established and to reduce the nitrAte concentration.

Glad to hear horatios doing well I would recommend adding a female now if you want babies however given that you are in the middle of cycling its not a good idea . With a female she must also be housed seperately for the vast majority of the time except when they are both in peak breeding condition when they can be mixed together overnight the female should then be removed and the male will look after his nest and all the babies within

Good luck and keep us posted!!

 

[sef]

Thanks! Glad to be here.

Here is my boy Horatio with bubble nest at top:

I think he will just live life as a bachelor, though, as I have no plans to add any females.

 

[dolphin]

Hi All

The two most miss quoted statments about nirtifing bacteria.

Doing water changes will remove them from the tank. NOT TRUE.

Syphoning the gravel will remove them from the gravel. NOT TRUE.

The nitrifying bacteria need a surface to live on to be able to survive and grow. They live on all surfaces within our tanks, Yes every surface. There are a small amount floating/swimming within the water, but they are looking for a surface to live on. All of the bacteria that are performing biological filtration are living on the tank surface areas.

The bacteria have a strong foot hold on the surfaces on which they live. Vacuuming the gravel will not remove living bacteria, only the dead ones, which give the living ones more room to grow and multiply.

If you have a fluidized bed filter, or a bubble bead filter, you will see that the filter media is in constant motion, with all the media knocking into each other. This is the same as what happens when we vacuum the gravel. This constant motion helps the bacteria to maximize the growing surface area, and keeps knocking off the dead bacteria, thus maintaining healthy growing bacteria.

If you do not clean the gravel, other bacteria strains will start to colonize the gravel, (this is the same for other filter medias), and compete for oxygen with the nitrifying bacteria. And thus stop them from growing , and thus slow down the nitrogen cycle. Causing the build up of toxins within the tank. Result sick/dead fish, if no action is taken

This is not my opinion, it is fact.

HTH

 

[HooDude]

Thank you for that, Dolphin.

However,

Siphoning the gravel reduces the organic waste present for ammonia production and thus nitrobactor growth. Increasing the water level or simply replacing water with fresh de-chlorinated tap water dilutes the ammonia concentration in the tank. When combined this lowers ammoinia and slows the cycle. True, maybe only by a few days, but still a few days at the least.

What you said about the bacteria is very true, I use Sera Siphorax (A german bacterial substrate) in the commercial tank I maintain for a veterinary clinic. It provides a MUCH greater surface area for bacteria to grow on, and keeps the anaerobic bacteria colony happy. I use Bio-Balls, which are a black ceramic disc with a bunch of rods sticking out like a ball, to provide area for aerobic bacteria to colonise, and to filter larger debris.

Siphoning the water will not make any impact on an established tank, however, in this case we are talking about a CYCLING tank. By reducing ammonia, we SLOW the cycle. If done too frequently, we stop the cycle.

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Sef, In your case I think because you tank is established and has been for a while, and you fish is happy, and you have zero nitrItes and Ammonia, you tank has completed the cycle.

To be on the safe side though, by some Hagen Cycle, and put in the recommended ammount for cycling tanks. It is non-pathonogenic, and you can't overdose (within reason, don't put your fish in the bottle). If you cycle is already complete it isn't a waste! By adding more bacteria you get competetive colonies. The weak bacteria are replaced by the stronger ones, and you end up with a better, more efficient bacteria colony.


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Now thats said, I think i'll go wash my hands