Cycling Issue - High Nitrites!

[TwoTankAmin]

Now I am beginning to make sense of what happened. You were likely cycled before you put that feeder in the tank. Those things are awful and I never ever suggest one use them. One of the reasons is they tend to cause exactly what happened to you. What makes it worse is is was not necessary to use it at all. Fish can survive for a while without food.
 
Here is what I think happened. As the feeder began to break down it created ammonia, more than your bacteria could handle. Being away you never saw it. But two factors were at work. The first is the ammonia bacs have a range of ammonia they can process before they reproduce. So a part of the bump in the ammonia was immediately handled. But this also meant that there was more nitrite being produced. The nitrite bacs reproduce slower than ammonia ones which meant nitrite rose. But as the ammonia kept rising, the ammonia bacs reproduced to handle it which meant even more nitrite. And the ammonia ones reproduce faster than the nitrite ones.
 
By the time you returned you had ammonia controlled but nitrite was not. Then some of the things you did in trying to deal with it did not help the situation, they actually made it worse. The proper solution was to add the needed amount of salt to get enough chloride to block the nitrite from entering the fish which makes water changes not needed. Had you done none, the nitrite bacs would have caught up. Instead you lowered the nitrite with a water change, so this slowed the reproduction of those bacs. All of the other stuff kept ammonia levels at a point where nitrite was still being made faster than it could be cleared and the result was it rose again. Water changes always slow the cycle. They should only be done when they are actually needed.
 
The last suggestion I gave you should fix the problem.

 

[ImperialDave]

Ok.  I appreciate it.

I checked it again tonight, and we are still at least 5 ppm nitrites.  The nitrates are on the rise, they are around 5 ppm for sure, now.  I added the salt, but the gills on the fish look pretty bad.  They actually look more active now, though, swimming after one another, and such.  I'm concerned that the nitrite level is so high.  

On a second note, if we leave for a week, just don't feed them, then?

 

[eaglesaquarium]

Yup... they are fine for a week without food.    BUT, if you are going to go for longer than that, I'd suggest getting someone to feed them a few times while you are away over the travel feeders.  They are bad.

 

[TwoTankAmin]

Nitrite does not affect gills the way ammonia does. It affects the blood of the fish.
 

Brown blood disease occurs in fish when water contains high nitrite concentrations. Nitrite enters the bloodstream through the gills and turns the blood to a chocolate-brown color.  Hemoglobin, which transports oxygen in the blood, combines with nitrite to form methemoglobin, which is incapable of oxygen transport. Brown blood cannot carry sufficient amounts of oxygen, and affected fish can suffocate despite adequate oxygen concentration in the water. This accounts for the gasping behavior often observed in fish with brown blood disease, even when oxygen levels are relatively high.
 
Luckily, although we often cannot prevent the occurrence of high nitrite, its effects can be minimized or neutralized safely and economically. Sodium chloride (common salt, NaCl) is used to “treat” brown blood disease. Calcium chloride can also be used but is typically more expensive. The chloride portion of salt competes with nitrite for absorption through the gills. Maintaining at least a 10 to 1 ratio of chloride to nitrite in a pond effectively prevents nitrite from entering catfish.

from https/srac.tamu.edu/index.cfm/getFactSheet/whichfactsheet/110/

 

[ImperialDave]

Ok.  Like I said before, they don't seem to be exhibiting any of the signs of nitrite poisoning, and seem to be in a good mood, with no weird behavior since I stopped the water changes.  I can see through them, and their blood doesn't look brown at all.  Two of them do have brownish gills, and the one still looks bloated, but that one is no longer hiding like he was back when I was doing the massive changes every day.  So, I guess they are ok? Maybe it's because I've always added a little salt?

I just checked the nitrate and nitrite.  The nitrites are still above 5 ppm, and the nitrates are still around 5 ish ppm.  So, there's not really been any movement on any of those numbers for about 5 days.  Should I just carry on?

 

[eaglesaquarium]

A nitrate test is really a tough thing to get accurate information on while you have nitrite present.  The nitrate test first turns the nitrate to nitrite, before you get the reading, and the nitrate test is tough to get accurate results on anyway.
 
 
I'd recommend you complete a diluted nitrite test to find out exactly how high it is.  Knowing how much nitrite is present is essential to know how much salt to use.  If the nitrite levels are too high (15ppm plus), you may need to do a 50% water change to lower it.  The most important thing to keep an eye on is your fish's behavior.  If they are more active than they had been, that's a good sign.
 
Keep up the extra agitation of the surface, as salt in the water will lower the water's ability to hold oxygen, and having as much oxygen as you can get into the water will also help them get the nitrite out of their systems.

 

[ImperialDave]

On the advice of someone, we stopped the major water changes, and just added salt to let the cycle complete, and to protect the fish. We have only been feeding the fish a little bit, every other day. They seem to be fine. The one fish that looks bloated, isn't any more bloated, and is eating.   
There seems to be no difference in nitrites, with them over 5 ppm. There does seem to be an increase in nitrates, so that means that bacteria is growing, I guess.  

We are doing a 50% water change.  With there being nitrates present (and rising), hopefully, we can get some of the nitrites and growing nitrates out, and see if it's properly cycled?

 

[TwoTankAmin]

There is no reason to do a water change if you have the proper amount of salt in the tank. All the water change will do is slow the cycle. And when the waster change is done, the nitrites will rise again because you took away the thing that makes the navyeria reproduce the fastest- nitrite. It would be different if it were high ammonia which one cannot effectively neutralize but the chloride blocks the nitrite from entering the fish, so they are in no danger from it.
 
Unless your nitrates are well over 40 ppm for sure, there is little need to change water for them yet. And even at 40+ it may still not be needed in the short term.

 

[ImperialDave]

ok.  I was changing for the nitrates, but they weren't near 40 ppm.  I shouldn't worry about weekly percentage changes for nitrates?  I didn't realize they could get so high.  

I was hoping that, since the nitrate making bacteria is now growing again, that if I changed out, and got rid of some of the overdose of nitrites, that it might start to balance out, finally.

So, just leave it, high nitrites, growing nitrates, and all, and just leave it?

 

[TwoTankAmin]

It is not an overdose. here is a simplified explanation:
 
A tank creates ammonia from the fish and from any decomposing organic matter.
The tank has the needed amount of ammonia bacteria to handle that ammonia as it is produced.
That ammonia is converted into nitrite immediately. But using typical hobby kits, 1 ppm of ammonia becomes about 2.55 ppm of nitrite at most.
That nitrite is converted into nitrate immediately. But the kit will now test about 3.46 ppm of nitrate at most.
 
Once you have all the needed ammonia bacteria, there are still not enough nitrite ones. This is why you get 0 ammonia but high nitrite. That high nitrite will cause the nitrite bacteria to reproduce until they can handle it as the ammonia bacs produce it. At this stage you have a full cycled tank. Ammonia created becomes nitrate as fast as that ammonia is produced.
 
Every time one has to change water during a cycle, it slows the process. With fish-in the rules change vs how one does fishless. but the process stays the same. Since once can use small amounts of salt to block nitrate. You do not need or want to lower nitrite levels via a water change.
 
Your problem is you probably do not know how much nitrite you actually have in the tank because it maxes out your test kit. It is likely higher than that reading. In order to calculate the proper amount of salt to add, you need to do diluted testing to determine the actual nitrite levels. The one caveat to all this is that if nitrite goes above 16 ppm on a diluted test, it will start to harm the cycle. Using he fishless cycling directions on this site makes it impossible for nitrite level to ever reach tht number. In a fish-in cycle the only control for ammonia is in what size and how many fish are involved,
 
Therefore you need to follow the directions in http/www.fishforums.net/index.php?/topic/433778-rescuing-a-fish-in-cycle-gone-wild-part-il/ for doing diluted testing and then the ones for calculating the amount of salt needed for that level of nitrite.
 
Your other option is water changes galore. And more time for the tank to be cycled.

 

[ImperialDave]

yeah, I knew most of that, but my logic made sense to me.  I listened and left it alone, entirely, since then.  I now have 0 ppm nitrites!  Much praise to TwoTankAdmin.  

My nitrates are now 5 ppm.  So, should I start doing weekly 25% water changes now, or should I just leave it alone until it starts approaching 40 ppm?

 

[eaglesaquarium]

25%-50% weekly water change would be a good routine.  Find a time that fits well in your schedule and stick to it.

 

[TwoTankAmin]

Weekly water changes are a good thing. They help remove unwanted things and also replenish good things that get used up. I do about 50% on all my tanks weekly, or pretty close to weekly since I have been keeping tanks (almost 15 years). It really helps keep parameters stable over time.
 
But one of my favorite things to say about water changes is that I have never heard of a fish having problems because the water was too clean. And you cannot have nitrates that are too low either unless its a well planted tank.

 

[ImperialDave]

Ok.  I'll start back with the water changes.  
 
Thanks, y'all.

 

[ImperialDave]

So, I've been doing the normal water changes, and over the last week I noticed that there's A LOT of stuff growing in there.  There is white "fluffy" stuff over the air tubes (and everything else), and there's dark green or black stuff on many of the ornaments.  The levels seem to be good, still.  

I know TwoTankAdmin said not to clean any of those things, but I have filter media (not cleaning that, should I at least swish it around in the old, removed water?), the spin wheel, and I added some filter sponge, all of which contains the bacteria colonies.  There's a ton of that white stuff floating around the tank, even after a 50% water change.  
 
Should I clean those off, level all the filter stuff alone?