cycling confusion overload

[keithg]

Hi all
I've read so many items on fishless cycling and more confused than ever.
Im about to set up a 180lt (45us gal) tank and transfer all fish from a 90lt.
I intend using some plants and filter sponge as a bacteria seed.
I know to add ammonia until I get 4 - 5 ppm. Do I continue adding more
ammonia ( same as I added originally or smaller amount ) until ammonia ppm is zero. Then I get a nitrite spike which will drop to zero when cycling complete ( do
I add more ammonia while waiting ) Then a 50% water change and full condition check before transfer. Should I risk all my fish.

 

[daza]

Hi keithg, welcome to TFF

Just to check - I assume the sponge is being taken from a filter in an established tank?

If so, and if you add it immediately (a short travelling distance will be okay, just keep it wet) to your tanks filter, then your tank is instantly cycled by seeding (because the cycling process only aims to grow bacteria in the filter media anyway) and you should add a small stock of fish immediately instead of adding ammonia.

I say a small stock because there will only be bacteria on that one sponge. If you can seed your entire filter media in an established tank first then you can stock your tank up to the desired level straight away. Remmember that if you add the seeded sponge but don't add fish immediately then there will be nothing to feed the bacteria and you will be back to the start (i.e. needing another mature sponge or fishless cycling).

The plants may help a tiny bit, but the sponge is the key.

If you are doing a fishless cycle, then either :

a ) add ammonia to take the level up to 3-4ppm and then measure each day and top up again to that level until ammonia and nitrite falls to zero. Plot the readings each day (together with nirtite and nitrate) to make it easier.

b ) add the same dosage of ammonia each day despite the reading. The level may go really high but should come down and cycle okay. This worked for me but most recommend a) above.

Hope that helps.


edit... a second thought.

Is the 90 litre tank yours? Are you able to run the filter from the 180 litre on the 90 litre for a while (couple of weeks, maybe less)? That will fully seed your 180 litre filter.

Or, can you transfer the filter from the 90 litre to the 180 and use it on that?

Just some other options.

 

[tttnjfttt]

Since you are taking everyone out of your old tank, move the new spounge into the old filter for a few weeks. I did this when I went from a 5 gal to a 20 gal with minimal trouble.

 

[rdd1952]

If so, and if you add it immediately (a short travelling distance will be okay, just keep it wet) to your tanks filter, then your tank is instantly cycled by seeding (because the cycling process only aims to grow bacteria in the filter media anyway) and you should add a small stock of fish immediately instead of adding ammonia.

Adding the sponge from an existing tank would only mean the tank is cycled for a very small amount of fish and definitely not enough for a 45 gallon tank (not even the ones that are in the 90 liter now). Bacteria don't just colonize on the filter media. They are in the substrate (move some of that too if you can), on plants and decorations and on the tanks walls. In a fishless cycle, the bacteria begin colonizing everywhere they normally would, not just in the filter. As suggested, I would run a second filter (if possible) in the 90 liter as your seed sponge so you don't have to take the one you normally use.

a ) add ammonia to take the level up to 3-4ppm and then measure each day and top up again to that level until ammonia and nitrite falls to zero. Plot the readings each day (together with nirtite and nitrate) to make it easier.

b ) add the same dosage of ammonia each day despite the reading. The level may go really high but should come down and cycle okay. This worked for me but most recommend a) above.

I would not recommend either of these. If you continue to add ammonia everyday, it will take you forever to cycle. That is the reason the nitrite spike takes so long in a normal fishless cycle You will also be cycled for about 10 times the number of fish that you can actually keep in the tank. You won't have accomplished anything other than taking up a lot of extra time.

You should add enough ammonia to raise the level to 4 to 6 ppm and then wait. Don't add any more until the level drops to zero. That should take about a week. Once it goes to zero, you should have a fair amount of nitrites.

Start adding ammonia each day to raise the level to 1 to 2 ppm. They should drop back to zero within about 24 hours but the nitrites will continue to climb. Keep adding ammonia and testing for nitrites. The nitrite spike will last about twice as long as the ammonia spike. It will almost literally drop to zero over night. Once it drops to zero, do a large water change (75 to 90 percent) and then you are ready to add your full fish load. If you can't add them right away, keep adding the ammonia daily to 1 to 2 ppm to keep all your bacteria fed.

Good luck.

 

[tttnjfttt]

If so, and if you add it immediately (a short travelling distance will be okay, just keep it wet) to your tanks filter, then your tank is instantly cycled by seeding (because the cycling process only aims to grow bacteria in the filter media anyway) and you should add a small stock of fish immediately instead of adding ammonia.

Adding the sponge from an existing tank would only mean the tank is cycled for a very small amount of fish and definitely not enough for a 45 gallon tank (not even the ones that are in the 90 liter now). Bacteria don't just colonize on the filter media. They are in the substrate (move some of that too if you can), on plants and decorations and on the tanks walls.

Honestly, I don't necessarily think this is true. While bacteria do grow in the rocks, on plants, and on decorations, the majority is in the filter. I used this when moving from a 5 to a 20 gal, and had no minicycle from this.

I think what is more important is how long was the previous tank established for? If it was a cycled for a month compared to cycled for a year, you will have more bacteria instead of the minimum to get by.

 

[rdd1952]

I think what is more important is how long was the previous tank established for? If it was a cycled for a month compared to cycled for a year, you will have more bacteria instead of the minimum to get by.

This is probably true but not because the bacteria colony continues to increase over time but because the fish will get larger and produce more waste. There will only be enough bacteria present at any time to handle the current waste load. As the fish grow and begin to produce more waste, more bacteria will form. A 2 year established tank with twenty 2" barbs in it won't have any more bacteria present than a 3 month-old tank with the same 20 barbs.

 

[daza]

We have probably confused the OP even more with all these different ideas

Adding the sponge from an existing tank would only mean the tank is cycled for a very small amount of fish.

Which is why I said "I say a small stock because there will only be bacteria on that one sponge. If you can seed your entire filter media in an established tank first then you can stock your tank up to the desired level straight away."

keithg - rdd1952 has given a third fishless cycling method there. That method looks like it uses the least ammount of ammonia so might be the best to use. Probably easier to increase in dosage should the need arise than to decrease too. But it sounds like you are in a position to seed the filter as discussed and that will be quicker.

I agree with tttnjfttt that the majority of the bacteria is in the filter, but

They are in the substrate (move some of that too if you can),

is a good idea. If you don't want to add it permanently then you can use a stocking.

 

[Briarmoor]

I went from a 10g to a 20g (same fish) and ran the 10g filter along side the 20g filter for 2 weeks. Transferred decorations and plant. Also put some old substrate in stockings in the new tank to help speed the bacteria growth in the tank. No mini cycle or high levels. Better luck for me than I had with the fishless cycle in the 55g using ammonia. If you have a tank to seed from, that might be least complicated.

P.