Cycling, Bio-Spira, and pH

[modernhamlet]

Ok. Why do people keep fish again?

I added Bio-Spira several days ago, since nothing seemed to be happening after a week of fishless cycling. My pH has been steadily dropping before that to point that my test kits weren't useful. I've changed the water, even though it slows the process, but the pH keeps on dropping.

Now I just read (way too late) that nitrifying bacteria don't do well in water lower than 6.5 pH, and too low will kill them. I did a 50% water change to get the pH back up, but it doesn't save the bacteria and sure doesn't solve the problem. I'm never going to get a colony of bacteria if I can't keep my pH above 6.0.

So basically, I'm sitting here with no fish, several hundred dollars and two solid weeks spent and all I have to show for it is water that bacteria can't even live in. And I have no idea why. This pretty much sucks.

At least with Poker I can enjoy myself while losing all my money.

 

[bgraber]

The PH is that low in your tap water huh? You could try some Aragonite for gravel, or some Texas Holey rock.. The Holey Rock won't be that good at boosting the PH cause it leeches very slowly.. There are some chemicals you can ad as well.. Although adding those chemicals all the time wouldn't be a good thing.. You could try a Reverse Osmosis unit, which should produce water that is an even 7 on the scale.. Do you ahve any driftwood in the tank? That can bring it down some.. Are you sure your tests are accurate?

 

[modernhamlet]

pH of declorinated tapwater is between 7 and 7.2.

Yes, I do have a piece of driftwood, but I've never read anything about driftwood driving the pH down to 6.0 and likely beyond. If that was possible, people wouldn't use driftwood, would they?

Flourite doesn't screw up pH does it?

 

[Socrates]

I don't know much about pH and it dropping like that.

Anyway, as far as the Bio-Spira, my understanding is that it's not designd to be used without fish. They are supposed to go in at pretty much the same time. It is supposed to go into water between 7 and 8.5 pH though.

 

[Bol]

Ok. Why do people keep fish again?

Well, because as you have learned, it can be sooo @#$%@# relaxing, right?

Sorry to hear about your problems.

The easier things first.

Seachem claims that Flourite has no effect on pH.

Some driftwood can, in fact, lower pH. But, as you said, probably not by an entire point or more.

BioSpira is in fact meant to be used with fish. I'm not sure if it'll work by using ammonia, as in the fishless method. If you were fishless, and didn't add ammonia after the BioSpira, then I'm sorry to say you probably just watched your $20 of bacteria starve.

But, in any case, I'd start by checking two things:

1) Pour some tap water into a container, and let it sit for 24 hours. Then test the pH, and see if it's still in the 7.0-7.2 range. (Sometimes, tap water has more CO2 in it than your air. AFter a day, most of the extra CO2 will leave the water, and that will make the pH drop).

2) Test the KH of your water. From the limited information, I would guess that you have a very low KH in your water. At least, that would make it easy to explain the large pH drop.

 

[modernhamlet]

GH of the tapwater and tankwater has always been between 125-150ppm.

Ammonia was already in the tank (4-5ppm) when I added the Bio-Spira.

Nitrites were measurable the day after I added the Bio-Spira and spiked to 5+ppm 2 days later.

Ammonia has gone down very, very slowly and is now slightly more than 2ppm.

So before a 50% water change tonight:
Ammonia = 2ppm
Nitrite = 5+ppm
pH = 6.0 or less
Temp = 82 F

After the water change:
Ammonia = 1ppm
Nitrite = 3ppm? (between 2 and 5)
pH = 6.4
Temp = 82

I guess all I can really do is keep doing partial water changes, add the plants that will be here by midweek, and hope that the pH stablizes.

 

[Bol]

GH of the tapwater and tankwater has always been between 125-150ppm.

Do you really mean GH? GH doesn't matter much in regards to pH; KH does.

Nitrites were measurable the day after I added the Bio-Spira and spiked to 5+ppm 2 days later.

And, they stayed there, until yesterday's water change, I'm guessing?

Ammonia has gone down very, very slowly and is now slightly more than 2ppm.

After you added the BioSpira, did you continue to add ammonia daily or not?

 

[modernhamlet]

Do you really mean GH? GH doesn't matter much in regards to pH; KH does.

I mean GH (General Hardness). The master test kit I bought (Aquarium Pharmaceuticals) does not have a KH test. Sounds like I need one. Would this be a safe assumption? If it turns out that my KH is too low, should I be adding a buffer?

I'd like to have stable, relatively soft, slightly acidic water. Given that I'm starting with 8dGH and 7.0pH tapwater, it shouldn't be that hard!

And, they stayed there, until yesterday's water change, I'm guessing?

That is correct. They dropped to around 3ppm after a 50% water change, so were around 6ppm before.

After you added the BioSpira, did you continue to add ammonia daily or not?

No. I figured that as long as the ammonia (and nitrite) levels were that high, adding more would do more harm than good. I did, however, add 1 capful after the 50% water change (3capfuls=5ppm in my 29 gallon).

At what point is there enough ammonia in the system that you should stop adding? I assumed it was 5ppm.

Thanks for your help, Bol!

 

[dcraveiro]

With BioSpira, you're supposed to add it in WITH fish!!! BioSpira is live bacteria and if you don't have any fishes producing waste to "feed" that bacteria, it will die off.

 

[modernhamlet]

With BioSpira, you're supposed to add it in WITH fish!!! BioSpira is live bacteria and if you don't have any fishes producing waste to "feed" that bacteria, it will die off.

There is more than adequate ammonia in the tank to feed the bacteria from the Bio-Spira. The ammonia that is generated by fish isn't any different from the pure ammonia that I'm using.

My concern isn't ammonia/nitrite levels (though boy would I like them to drop!) I'm worried about the fact that my pH keeps dropping and what effect that may have on the nitrifying bacteria.

 

[Socrates]

MY TetraTest LaborettKit came with a KH test.

It says the following:

"The carbonate hardness (KH) of the water is detremined by the carbonate and bicarbonate content. This measurement is particularly important as the KH and pH values are interdependant:

• The higher the KH value of the water, the more alkaline it is, i.e. the PH value is increased. Due to the buffering effect of the high KH value, the pH is stabilized against fluctuations.
  
• The lower the KH value the more acid the water, i.e. the pH value is decreased and is less pH stable. There is also the risk of marked fluctuations in the pH values, which are dangerous for fish and plant life.
  

A KH Value of 3-10 dH is recommended for most freshwater fish.

 

[Bol]

If it turns out that my KH is too low, should I be adding a buffer?

I'd say a hesitant "probably", but I generally consider chemical additives as a last resort, personally. As a short answer, a very low KH (say, below 55 ppm or 3 degrees), can often lead to pH crashes. If it comes to it, as a buffer, I'd suggest just plain old sodium bicarbonate (baking soda), rather than a commercial product. But, get the tests done first.

(Did you continue to add ammonia after introducing BioSpira?) No. I figured that as long as the ammonia (and nitrite) levels were that high, adding more would do more harm than good.

Seems like a reasonable conclusion to me. Two more quick questions, and an observation:

1) What brand of dechlorinator are you using?
2) Does your ammonia test kit have one reagent bottle, or two?

Once again, I've never heard of using BioSpira along with a fishless cycle (i.e. just adding ammonia). Seems reasonable to think "ammonia is ammonia", but who knows? Not me, at least.

At what point is there enough ammonia in the system that you should stop adding? I assumed it was 5ppm.

The way I understand fishless cycling, you usually add enough ammonia to bring the concentration up to 5ppm. Then, you repeat that dosage every day until nitrites show up, at which point you halve the amount of ammonia you introduce, and continue that half-dose daily until nitrites are zero, and nitrates are measureable. Then you add fish..

 

[modernhamlet]

Just got back from my LFS. The one that is expensive but gives good advice. The KH was quite low, relative to the GH.

Their suggestions in order:

1. Remove the driftwood for several days. It is a dark piece of Malaysian wood and is the likely culprit. See how the pH reacts. In the meantime, soak driftwood in hot declorinated water as often as practical.

2. Use 1 tsp baking soda per 20 gallons to raise pH and to buffer. Once things stabilize, I might try to add the driftwood again and see how things work out.

3. Use a water softener only if keeping pH at an acceptable level would bring the KH too high. (At least I think that's what they meant.)


To answer your questions:
1. Hagen's AquaPlus
2. Two.


Looking back, I should have gone with the Bio-Spira to start (hadn't read about it at the time) or stuck with the fishless strategy (No fish = No patience). Lesson learned. I'll definitely have a different strategy next time I start a tank.

Luckily, I think the cycle is well on it's way. Hopefully, I can get these pH/KH issues put to bed by the time it's complete.

 

[Bol]

The KH was quite low, relative to the GH.

I kind of expected (hoped?) to hear that. Again, if your KH is below 3 degrees (~55 ppm), it'll probably be tough to maintain a stable pH.

Yeah, I'd get the wood out of the tank, too. And, just because I'm far too curious, I'd personally probably get a tub of water, let it sit for a day, test it, put the driftwood in, and then test it a few days later. That might tell you for sure that the wood is lowering your pH, but it's not necessary, unless you're a data junkie like me.

Use 1 tsp baking soda per 20 gallons to raise pH and to buffer.

In your case, that's probably good advice. However, to possibly clear something up, that's not really a stock answer. The most related to formula I've found is:

1 tsp of baking soda will raise the KH of 50 liters (~13 US gallons) by 4 degrees (~70 ppm).

So, 1 tsp in 20 gallons should raise your KH by about 2.5 degrees, which should put you in the "optimal" zone of 3-6 degrees (slightly higher isn't bad). And, when you raise your KH, your pH should (!) rise along with it. At the least, it should stay more stable.

If you do go the baking soda route, one thing to note: when you do a water change, dose the baking soda according to the amount of new water you put in, not the entire tank volume. The first time you add it, of course, dose for the entire volume.

I asked those last two questions, mainly because some dechlorinating products, like AmQuel, and I would guess Bio-Safe (and others whose active ingredient is Sodium Hydroxymethane sulfinite), sometimes can give false positive readings on ammonia tests, with certain kinds of tests. Sounds like you've probably got the "right" kind of test, though.

Good luck.

 

[modernhamlet]

Yes, Bol... in case you didn't notice, I too am a data junkie.

The driftwood is soaking in a 5 gallon bucket now. We'll see just how big an impact that has on pH when I test the water tomorrow.

As far as the baking soda goes, I think the safe route is to add half of what I think I'll need and then adjust slowly as needed. Better than adding too much too soon!

It's just good to finally have some idea what in the world was going on in my tank!

Thanks again for the advice!