Cracking the code of the German Blue Ram

[JMort]

I am in no way considered a fish expert, however I have been very successful keeping all types of tropical community fish and cichlids in planted tanks. That is until I decided to keep German Blue Rams. I have a 90 gallon well seasoned tank that has been in place for a couple of years. never even had an ick outbreak. This isn’t bragging, this is me getting sick about not being able to keep a GBR for longer than 2 months. My PH is 6.3 and nitrates are 15 with an over filtered fish tank with more plant coverage and caves needed for fish to be happy. Water flow is modest but controlled so fish can swim freely as well as sleep in the planted areas, rocks and caves without being stressed by flowing water. Bolivian Rams are fine, Kribs are actually laying eggs now and yet I am over $300.00 in GBR losses. All of them die the same way. Do wonderful between 1-6 weeks then in just 1 day the ram becomes stationary and within another day or 2 heavy labored rapid breathing that lasts anywhere from 1-3 days before belly up. Belly up has happened while I was watching on more than one occasion. Some aquarists recommended antibiotic, salt and/or parasite baths. Antibiotic mixed with Focus in food during the downturn. Nothing works. I keep nitrates 15 or less and complete 10-20pct water changes 3 times per week. i was recently told to try my luck with really young rams so I bought 4 the size of a quarter. they lived for a week so I bought 4 more same size, different breeder. I am 2 weeks in and have not lost any as of now. I have never gone this long without losing at least one but I am more on edge than excited.
I am hoping there are pros out there who can help me and others like me as we search for guidance in one single location so we can not only keep these fish alive but even breed them in the future. I love the GBRs and want nothing more than breed a healthy line and find others to eventually trade with to keep the gene pool healthy.
well, I rattled on enough. Looking forward to meeting friends who successfully raise GBRs as well as those like me who are at their wits end trying.

 

[Colin_T]

It sounds like they are developing an internal bacterial infection. This could be caused by bad food, lots of gunk in the substrate, a dirty filter or Fish tuberculosis (TB).

Have all your previous rams come from the same shop/ breeder?
What are you feeding them?
Do you gravel clean the substrate when you do a water change?
How often and how do you clean the filter?
What does their poop look like before they get sick and when they get sick?
Do they eat when they get sick?

Have you got any pictures or video of the rams when they start looking unwell and breathing heavily?
If not, try to get some, video in particular would be helpful.

 

[seangee]

What is the temperature in your tank? GBRs require warmer water than Bolivian Rams or Kribs and need it to be in the 27-30C range.

 

[JMort]

It sounds like they are developing an internal bacterial infection. This could be caused by bad food, lots of gunk in the substrate, a dirty filter or Fish tuberculosis (TB).

Have all your previous rams come from the same shop/ breeder?
What are you feeding them?
Do you gravel clean the substrate when you do a water change?
How often and how do you clean the filter?
What does their poop look like before they get sick and when they get sick?
Do they eat when they get sick?

Have you got any pictures or video of the rams when they start looking unwell and breathing heavily?
If not, try to get some, video in particular would be helpful.

Thank you! I will take video and pics with this new batch if they get sick. As of this morning, all good. To answer the questions:
I rotate food daily with Cichlid floating and sinking pellets, high protein flakes, freshly hatched brine shrimp, shrimp pellets, freeze dried small shrimp and/or freeze dried bloodworms. Two feedings per day and the above mentioned are rotated.
I use the power vacuum to do water changes so I do clean the substrate. The substrate does not have any junk visible to the eye and vacuuming does not pull out very much cloud from the substrate.
I clean one filter per week. I have four filters. Fluval 406 and 407 and 2 double biowheel filters hang on back. Poop is always perfect and the color represents the color of the food. However, day one of heavy breathing, no eating, swimming or pooping. I never loose any of my 15 harlequins, Bolivian Rams or my Kribs. I have never seen any aggression out of any of the fish in the tank. In fact, the Bolivians hang with the GBRs until they pass. The Kribs stay to themselves in the plants and specific caves.
The 15ppm nitrates is my latest goal with the new batch. My nitrates hovered around 20-30 in the past. I changed out plants that easily shed leaves which wreaked havoc on my snail population. I never had a leaf last more than 2 days in the past due to the amount of snails. Nitrites, ammonia are always zero with PH stable at 63. I have a closet full of foods, filter media and everything else needed for a healthy tank. I kept fish from 1986-2001 (kids) then got back into fish again a few years ago. The last time I had this issue with a specific fish was in the late 80’s. I could not keep a neon alive back then but now knowing about GH and KH and the change of terminology of soft and hard water, neons are no longer an issue. Thank you so much for helping! My wife tells me to move on from the Ram or go get therapy. ?. I love those fish.
I purchased from 3 fish stores that are very known for quality, a breeder from NY as well as California.

 

[jams]

Hmm... Strange you keep have the deaths. As mentioned what temp is the tank?
I have kept GBR successfully. In a 55g Planted Community and also breeding 10g tanks.
Temp @ 80-82.
p/H 7.8 medium hard water from Lake Erie.
They even spawned regularly, but I could not get them past the wiggler stage.
I feed similar foods and do weekly 50-60% water changes.

You mentioned a breeder from NY, is it coralbandit?
He has the "Best" fish by far, the "Ram" guru IMHO.

 

[JMort]

Hmm... Strange you keep have the deaths. As mentioned what temp is the tank?
I have kept GBR successfully. In a 55g Planted Community and also breeding 10g tanks.
Temp @ 80-82.
p/H 7.8 medium hard water from Lake Erie.
They even spawned regularly, but I could not get them past the wiggler stage.
I feed similar foods and do weekly 50-60% water changes.

You mentioned a breeder from NY, is it coralbandit?
He has the "Best" fish by far, the "Ram" guru IMHO.

I keep the tank at 80. Not coralbandit but I will look home up. Thank you for replying.

 

[JMort]

Hmm... Strange you keep have the deaths. As mentioned what temp is the tank?
I have kept GBR successfully. In a 55g Planted Community and also breeding 10g tanks.
Temp @ 80-82.
p/H 7.8 medium hard water from Lake Erie.
They even spawned regularly, but I could not get them past the wiggler stage.
I feed similar foods and do weekly 50-60% water changes.

You mentioned a breeder from NY, is it coralbandit?
He has the "Best" fish by far, the "Ram" guru IMHO.

7.8 PH? I would have thought PH that high would shorten their lives. Maybe I am doing this all wrong.

 

[Colin_T]

Unless they are wild caught rams, a pH of 7.8 is fine. And a high pH does not cause fish to suddenly breath heavily, stop eating and die six months after they were put in the tank.

 

[JMort]

Unless they are wild caught rams, a pH of 7.8 is fine. And a high pH does not cause fish to suddenly breath heavily, stop eating and die six months after they were put in the tank.

Like I said, good to know and I appreciate the feedback. This very well could be a stressor in my tank. Thank you.

 

[jams]

I just thought of this, you mentioned your water pH is 6.3 which is on the alkaline side. When you purchase fish what is the pH ? The swing of pH could be causing your deaths. When I purchase fish I always ask for their pH. If more than a .5 difference I take the time to acclimate.

Good Luck!

By the way the successful "Ram" breeders water is 7.6 from the tap.

 

[JMort]

I just thought of this, you mentioned your water pH is 6.3 which is on the alkaline side. When you purchase fish what is the pH ? The swing of pH could be causing your deaths. When I purchase fish I always ask for their pH. If more than a .5 difference I take the time to acclimate.

Good Luck!

By the way the successful "Ram" breeders water is 7.6 from the tap.

I just thought of this, you mentioned your water pH is 6.3 which is on the alkaline side. When you purchase fish what is the pH ? The swing of pH could be causing your deaths. When I purchase fish I always ask for their pH. If more than a .5 difference I take the time to acclimate.

Good Luck!

By the way the successful "Ram" breeders water is 7.6 from the tap.

Great point. 2 of the locations are 7.0 and one other is 6.5. I use the slow drip acclimation which takes a few hours by the time it is all said and done. However, between your response and Colin’s response above, I am adding a sack of crushed coral to my tank to push it up slowly. Since none of the rams are wild caught, I may very well be harming them by bringing the, back to the PH in the wild. My thinking was to have them breed and the 6-6.5 would help. Picking up coral tonight. Thank you for checking in!
I am surprised there aren’t more folks chiming in having the same issues with the rams. None the less, I am very thankful for those of you who are providing input. 2 weeks in and no rapid breathing.

 

[Colin_T]

Captive bred fish are more tolerant of pH and don't require the same pH they have in the wild. However, they do appreciate having a pH close to what they encounter in the wild. In the wild rams have a pH below 7.0.

You don't want to add coral, shells or anything to increase the pH for rams.

-------------------
Sudden changes in pH can kill fish from acidosis or alkalosis, but this happens quickly, within 24 hours of the pH change.

 

[JMort]

Captive bred fish are more tolerant of pH and don't require the same pH they have in the wild. However, they do appreciate having a pH close to what they encounter in the wild. In the wild rams have a pH below 7.0.

You don't want to add coral, shells or anything to increase the pH for rams.

-------------------
Sudden changes in pH can kill fish from acidosis or alkalosis, but this happens quickly, within 24 hours of the pH change.

Thank you, Colin. You posted before I made the trip for the coral. Hopefully this group will hang in there. Still strong this morning and eating well.

 

[Essjay]

you mentioned your water pH is 6.3 which is on the alkaline side

Just a point of clarification in case it confuses anyone else -

pH 6.3 is acidic not alkaline.

Alkaline pH - or more correctly, basic pH - is above 7.0.
Acidic pH is below 7.0.
Exactly 7.0 is neutral pH.

 

[jams]

Oops ! That's what I meant, spell check? Thanks for the correction.