Copper Pipes

[Miss Wiggle]

to inverts yes a heavy metal remover is essential

but a dechlorinator being essential for fish, i'm not so sure

don't get me wrong i'm by no means saying it isn't needed, but i've seen enough evidence for my opinion to waver. just don't like people to think it's absolutely needed when there are quite a few people who don't use it with apparently no side effects so it can't be as essential as we are all lead to believe

 

[Invader Xan]

Evidently it depends on the fish. Which makes sense, considering how many fish there are in the world. Perhaps the same rules apply as for which fish can tolerate brackish water.

Fish, I'll freely admit, aren't my area of expertise. That's why I usually hang out here in the inverts section.

 

[GoldLenny]

to inverts yes a heavy metal remover is essential

but a dechlorinator being essential for fish, i'm not so sure

don't get me wrong i'm by no means saying it isn't needed, but i've seen enough evidence for my opinion to waver. just don't like people to think it's absolutely needed when there are quite a few people who don't use it with apparently no side effects so it can't be as essential as we are all lead to believe

Everything I've read says it takes 48+ hours to outgas chlorine and around a 7-14 days to break down the chloramine and outgas the chlorine. The ammonia will be handled by your biofilter.

If your tap/source water is treated with either of these, it's not advisable to put fish in the water until these disinfectants have broken down and the chlorine outgased. The chlorine will burn their gills which will lead to breathing issues, stunting issues from lack of ability to get O2 and possible death.

While I've seen many threads on people topping off their tanks without dechloring the water first, which is likely OK since most dechlor products are based on various salts and most salts do not evaporate so they stay in the water waiting for a chlorine molecule to show up and attach to it.... but I wouldn't put fish in chlorinated water or water treated with chloramine without first using a dechlor product.

 

[andywg]

What you have to bear in mind with chloramine is the problems encountered in waste water treatment. It appears that our ammonia oxidising bacteria can utilise the ammonia part of the chloramine for food. This then leaves a less toxic version of chlorine than the gas normally dosed by water companies and it happily gasses off.

Also, AOB are becoming immune to chloramine. Bacteria levels are not as low as they would have been expected, and to make it worse, since the AOB can utilise the chloramine as food, they are leaving less chlorine based agents to get rid of nasty stuff like E. coli.

It could well be that the filter colony is pulling the chlorine based treatments out before they can be a problem to the fish. I have seen journals of people who have stopped using dechlorinators for 6 months and no ill effects. They test the chlorine levels and the level in tap water (4-5ppm) is completely gone within 5 minutes of water changes of 30-50%. However, they noted that immature tanks (less than 6 months old) took longer to clear the chlorine.

This would be a great area to actually study. There is very little real scientific research into the keeping of fish in chlorinated (or chloraminated) water.

 

[toppman]

i cant beleive iv started an intellectual debate.
im so proud

 

[Invader Xan]

Indeed. Kudos to you. This has turned into rather an interesting discussion!

 

[AmberMc]

I wonder if this is why I could never keep apple snails... I've never used dechlorinator in my tanks, as our tap is spring fed... but with copper pipes.

 

[GoldLenny]

Now one thing that can alleviate some of the worry about copper pipes is if you are in an area with hard water or moderately hard water. The calcium/mineral buildup on the insides of pipes get so thick that none of the water actually touches the pipes any more.

This is very common down here in the New Orleans area where we have moderately hard water. Due to Hurricane Katrina, my company has been involved in gutting dozens of homes and in rebuilding many of them as well. When we are tasked with cutting out old pipes, quite often the inside diameter of the pipe is reduced to a 1/4" - 1/2" where it should have been 3/4" - 1" because of the buildup.

This also helped save lots of kids from lead poisoning since in the old days, they would use lead based solder to solder the copper pipes but since the mineral buildup was so thick, the water never touched the lead solder.

Now, if you have soft water or new copper pipes, then dosing with a good dechlor/heavy metal treatment is advisable.

As far as whether the chlorine/chloramine will kill the N-bacteria in the filter media, I was told that if the water is dosed at 4-5ppm with chloramine/chlorine and remains in contact with bacteria for 5 minutes, then it will likely kill them. It won't kill them to simply rinse the pads or media under a faucet but if you fill the tank with tap water without using a dechlor, I would suspect it will kill all of the N-bacteria in a short period of time... long before the chloramine breaks down and/or the chlorine outgases. Some N-bacteria may survive if covered in detritus or something like that and they are capable of doubling their colony size every 24 hours so the tank might only have a mini-cycle or a full blown cycle... but the fishes gills will likely have damage from the disinfectant level in the water.

The moral of the story... dechlor is cheap and easy to use.

 

[Miss Wiggle]

This would be a great area to actually study. There is very little real scientific research into the keeping of fish in chlorinated (or chloraminated) water.

agreed

I was talking to Matt Clarke about it the other day, suggested it as a topic PFK could cover and he sounds hopeful.

it's my pet subject of the moment!