Considering Poison Dart Frogs

[FunkyDexter]

Hi All

I just inherited a 100L corner tank and was thinking of doing something a little different by setting up a paludarium with waterfall. For background, I've been keeping heavily planted tropical aquariums for years but this'll be my first punt at a paludarium. I'm considering setting it up for poison dart frogs but have a couple of concerns before I commit.

1. How loud are they? This is going to be against a wall and there's a bedroom on the other side of that wall. It's a decent brick wall, not just fibreboard, but I'm still a little concerned that it'll drive my lodger nuts if they're chirping away at 100 decibels all night.
2. How manageable are the logistics of caring for and feeding them. They need live food like flies, crickets etc. which I've never had to manage before. I have a local fish shop where I can pick up supplies easily but I don't want to have to be down there every day. I guess my question is, what sort of setup do I need to support the food?
3. Any other warnings I should take on board.

If I don't go with the frogs I was considering vampire crabs which should be much quieter and easier but a bit less interesting I think.

 

[wayfareranima]

I saw on a fish keeping tutorial that its not hard to humanely breed your own crickets for live feeding, this guy just had a large storage tub and a heap of grass clippings and egg cartons. Fed ‘em veggies.

 

[Seisage]

Hey there! I think this forum isn't the best place to ask about dart frogs, since we're largely a freshwater fish forum. I'm not thinking about keeping dart frogs (...yet) but I've dropped by dendroboard.com (as in the genus Dendrobates) a number of times while researching frogs in general and keeping vivariums. They're a forum completely dedicated to poison dart frogs, and I think it's still decently active? I'd recommend checking them out.

As for paludarium setups, you might also find advice about those on dendroboard as well, although to my knowledge, most people keep dart frogs in vivs. But I've been watching a lot of SerpaDesign videos on youtube lately. Tanner does some fantastic scaping and setup videos for aquariums, vivs, and paludariums.

 

[FunkyDexter]

I think this forum isn't the best place to ask about dart frogs, since we're largely a freshwater fish forum.

Yeah, I get that. I mainly posted here because I'm already a member and posted in the Amphibians and Aquatic Reptiles sub forum. I figured someone on here might have some valuable input. I'll try the Dendroboard forum though. Thanks for the suggestion.

As for paludarium setups, you might also find advice about those on dendroboard as well, although to my knowledge, most people keep dart frogs in vivs. But I've been watching a lot of SerpaDesign videos on youtube lately. Tanner does some fantastic scaping and setup videos for aquariums, vivs, and paludariums.

I considered a straight Viv but, since you want a pretty moist atmosphere for dart frogs I felt it leant itself quite well to a Pal and the interest is as much about the scaping as the frogs themselves (as long as it's suitable for them, or course). The plan is to only have a shallow pool of water at the front with a couple of waterfalls feeding into it so you could kinda describe it as a fancy rainforest Viv with a small amount of water rather than a full blown Pal with mixed species.

I saw on a fish keeping tutorial that its not hard to humanely breed your own crickets for live feeding, this guy just had a large storage tub and a heap of grass clippings and egg cartons. Fed ‘em veggies.

Yeah, that's the sort of thing I was considering but not sure how much effort it might be, how loud the crickets are, whether they escape etc.

 

[Magnum Man]

curious if these are dangerous to handle, with bare hands, or if something has to get under your skin???

 

[gwand]

curious if these are dangerous to handle, with bare hands, or if something has to get under your skin???

It’s the frogs diet found in its natural habitat that transforms the skin into a poisonous agent. In captivity with the a typical terrarium diet, the frogs are not poisonous.

 

[Uberhoust]

I would expect if you start breeding crickets to feed your frogs that they might affect the lodger more than the frogs, they can be smelly, noisy, and have a real strong ability to escape and be found around the house. Just my experience, yours may differ.

 

[Colin_T]

I think @emeraldking knows a bit about these.

1. How loud are they?

Not very loud. You can hold a conversation next to them and not have to go outside.

2. How manageable are the logistics of caring for and feeding them.

Check out bird forums and Google "culturing live foods for birds". They have lots of info on culturing live insects for African finches and you use the same for frogs.

3. Any other warnings I should take on board.

Don't lick them

 

[Seisage]

I considered a straight Viv but, since you want a pretty moist atmosphere for dart frogs I felt it leant itself quite well to a Pal and the interest is as much about the scaping as the frogs themselves (as long as it's suitable for them, or course). The plan is to only have a shallow pool of water at the front with a couple of waterfalls feeding into it so you could kinda describe it as a fancy rainforest Viv with a small amount of water rather than a full blown Pal with mixed species.

After having done more research on dart frogs (I'm still not interested in keeping them, but they're neat animals), it seems they drown rather easily, actually. They're also rather small, of course, so you would definitely want to keep any water feature to a very shallow depth and make sure to provide hardscape that allows them to climb out easily. The thing with water that shallow is that you may not be able to provide any filtration for it, unless you had a very strategically placed canister filter intake.

Yeah, that's the sort of thing I was considering but not sure how much effort it might be, how loud the crickets are, whether they escape etc.

There are some crickets which I hear are much quieter and less smelly. I think they're called banded crickets. They shouldn't be able to escape easily if you have a secure setup. To my knowledge, they aren't much effort to keep and the food for them is very cheap. HOWEVER, dart frogs are very small creatures and they would probably only be able to eat pinhead or maybe 1/8" crickets. Crickets grow fast, so unless you continually bought new ones in small quantities, or bred them, you wouldn't have small enough crickets. And you'd want some way to get rid of the larger crickets as they grew. Even though their mouths seem large enough for bigger prey, dart frogs exclusively eat tiny insects. Most people prefer to feed them wingless fruit flies, which you can also culture.

Aside from Dendroboard, check out Josh's Frogs. They do a lot of things, but the main thing they specialize in is dart frogs. They have a lot of great care information both on the frog product listings and on their blog.

 

[FunkyDexter]

Don't lick them

Now, you've just ruined my keyboard by making me spit my cup of tea all over it. Thank you for the great replies, though, particularly on the quietness. That's probably my biggest concern. And I'll do some research around your google suggestion.

keep any water feature to a very shallow depth and make sure to provide hardscape that allows them to climb out easily

Way ahead of you on that. From what I've read they can swim but they're not strong so plenty of egress points, no caves where they might get stuck etc. A depth of a few inches should be ok but only 2 or 3.

you may not be able to provide any filtration for it

From what I've seen you don't need to provide a filter as such. Rather you build up the base using filter sponge and then have a pump at the back of it that draws water through the sponge and up to a head to provide the waterfall. So it behaves kind of like an old school under gravel filter except with the sponge as a medium. Not as effective as something like a modern canister filter but it doesn't need to be as there's nothing in the water producing waste. (I have looked at maybe putting a very few of the smaller shrimp varieties in the water but that'd be it so waste shouldn't be a problem. I'm a bit worried they might get eaten though so I probably won't - although most sites say it works because the frogs don't actually go in the water.) For cleaning up on the land area there's some mites (who's name currently escape me) that just cruise around in the substrate doing their thing.

they would probably only be able to eat pinhead or maybe 1/8" crickets

Most of the sites I've seen quote Crickets and Fruit Flies at the top end of size. I'm thinking I should be able to put small larva in when they're small then graduate up to slightly larger food as they grow.

Oddly enough, Josh's Frogs was one of the sites I'd already looked at for info. Great site. I've also been lurking on Dendroboard since you suggested it and have picked up some good info. I haven't actually joined it (I'm not a great joiner I'm afraid) but it's definitely proved a valuable lurk.

 

[emeraldking]

Well, the sounds of crickets make me think that I'm on a vacation in the tropics. But since they're every active at night, The sound may also be a frustration when you try to sleep. They're perfect escapers. And trying to catch crickets by their sound may result in a long fight. You hear them on your left but it turns out that they're on the other side. It's hard to follow the sound if one wants to catch them. But posin dart frogs love them. But live food escaping from a terrarium, paludarium or even a fishtank that is used, is easy to most live food. To be honest, I loved mostly those spring tails to use as live food. They will reproduce themselves massively in a terrarium. Especially when it humid enough. If youy have some soli or moss around, they can live in there when kept in a terrarium. This ensures us that there will be continous live food for those datrs to eat. The best thing of spring tails in comparison to other live food, is that they'll stay as much as possible in the terrarium as long as it's humid. Other live food will try to escape.

 

[Seisage]

But live food escaping from a terrarium, paludarium or even a fishtank that is used, is easy to most live food. To be honest, I loved mostly those spring tails to use as live food.

Springtails are great. Regarding escapees, I saw a guy on Youtube once who constructed his own dart frog vivarium from scratch. Part of the design was a set of sliding glass doors and to prevent fruit flies from escaping, he ran a small bead of silicone on one of the glass pieces so that the cured silicone sealed off the gap between the two sliding doors. Seems like that'd work pretty well.

Way ahead of you on that. From what I've read they can swim but they're not strong so plenty of egress points, no caves where they might get stuck etc. A depth of a few inches should be ok but only 2 or 3.

Perfect, sounds like a good plan

From what I've seen you don't need to provide a filter as such. Rather you build up the base using filter sponge and then have a pump at the back of it that draws water through the sponge and up to a head to provide the waterfall.

Yes, that's true actually. I had forgotten you were planning on a waterfall. Yeah, I've seen a lot of paludarium designers create a setup like that. It's what I plan on doing when I construct the water feature for my tree frog viv.

Most of the sites I've seen quote Crickets and Fruit Flies at the top end of size. I'm thinking I should be able to put small larva in when they're small then graduate up to slightly larger food as they grow.

I think that could work, although you should also follow emeraldking's advice and get a good colony of springtails going so your juvenile frogs can eat those to start out.

Oddly enough, Josh's Frogs was one of the sites I'd already looked at for info. Great site.

I do love Josh's Frogs. I plan on taking advantage of their easter sale and buying some plants for the eventual viv setup. Seems like they all do well as houseplants, so I'll let them hang out and get established in pots while I do construction.

Which frog species are you thinking of getting?

 

[Colin_T]

After having done more research on dart frogs (I'm still not interested in keeping them, but they're neat animals), it seems they drown rather easily, actually. They're also rather small, of course, so you would definitely want to keep any water feature to a very shallow depth and make sure to provide hardscape that allows them to climb out easily. The thing with water that shallow is that you may not be able to provide any filtration for it, unless you had a very strategically placed canister filter intake.

It's bizarre isn't it, frogs drowning. I found that out in 2000 when we got some tiny frogs from down south. I thought put them in a bucket of water, they all drowned.

We used small plastic containers for water in the frog tanks. If they wanted water they could sit in it and get out easily and there was no chance of them drowning.

Make sure the water is free of chlorine/ chloramine and has no salt in it and preferably no minerals or minimal minerals. They can soak up water through their skin and if it has chlorine/ chloramine, salt, chemicals or minerals in, they take those up as well and it can kill them (especially salt and chlorine/ chloramine).

 

[FunkyDexter]

To be honest, I loved mostly those spring tails to use as live food.

Now that's interesting. Thinking back, it was spring tails I'd seen recommended to keep the tank clean so if they act as a food source too then that's a nice virtuous circle.

Which frog species are you thinking of getting?

Not sure yet (at this stage I'm still only half way to settling on it even being dart frogs) but from what I've read so far I'm veering toward tinctorius. The colours are awesome, they seem to be on the larger end of dart frogs (though still pretty small) and seem to have a quieter call than most.

It's what I plan on doing when I construct the water feature for my tree frog viv.

I did consider tree frogs. They're insanely cute and seem to be fairly easy to care for. There's still a real chance I might veer back to them at the last minute. I'm still kind of in that "I want ALL the frogs" stage so I'm trying not to get distracted

Make sure the water is free of chlorine/ chloramine and has no salt in it and preferably no minerals or minimal minerals.

Yeah, I'd read that in the care guides. I think it's a case of treating the water the same as I do for my aquariums. Filtered tap water with dechlorinator added. I'd love any extra advice on this.

 

[Seisage]

Now that's interesting. Thinking back, it was spring tails I'd seen recommended to keep the tank clean so if they act as a food source too then that's a nice virtuous circle.

Yes! Springtails and isopods, along with a proper substrate setup, make for a bioactive vivarium. I'd recommend researching substrate types and proper layering if you haven't already. I'm definitely going to go bioactive, personally. It means you don't have to change out the substrate very often, if at all, and most of the maintenance is spot cleaning.

Not sure yet (at this stage I'm still only half way to settling on it even being dart frogs) but from what I've read so far I'm veering toward tinctorius. The colours are awesome, they seem to be on the larger end of dart frogs (though still pretty small) and seem to have a quieter call than most.

I did consider tree frogs. They're insanely cute and seem to be fairly easy to care for. There's still a real chance I might veer back to them at the last minute. I'm still kind of in that "I want ALL the frogs" stage so I'm trying not to get distracted

Ah yes, I've heard tinctorius is a be good beginner species. They definitely have some really gorgeous morphs.
Yeah a lot of the tree frogs are adorable. I'm almost certainly going for white's tree frogs. Pretty basic choice, but I've only heard good things about them as pets and they're what's most available to me unless I mail order. I've also definitely been in the distracted phase. For a bit, I was even starting to look into what sorts of geckos I could have lol. I think I'm finally starting to settle out of it though, which is nice because it means I can actually focus on building their viv

Yeah, I'd read that in the care guides. I think it's a case of treating the water the same as I do for my aquariums. Filtered tap water with dechlorinator added. I'd love any extra advice on this.

From what I understand, yeah, it's basically the same. I've been seeing basically every resource say to just use the dechlorinators found in the aquarium section.