Considering closing down a tank?

[StevenF]

I used Seachem Flourish root tabs and had Co2 up and running and EI ferts calculated for that sized tank, EI ferts was added 3 times a week. The lights were two T5 tubes, pretty intense lights.

And every water change I added some Tropical Premium.

I think i know why you had algae issues. The central premise in EI is to have all elements the plants need in slight excess so that deficiencies don't develop. Then it is hopped that the plants could outcompete the algae for nutrients. CO2 and extra light are not required but they do speed up plant growth making it more likely you will succeed. If you don't use CO2 you need less fertilizer.

Tropical premium doesn't list the ingredients on line. But today I found a forum post about it and a person asked the company for the the nutrient list and then posted the reply. Below I compare the it to Flourish comprehensive which has a caused on of my anacharis to pearl in my small low tech aquarium. * indicates missing. - indicates missing but in your other EI fertilizers.

Tropical Premium:
-/-//k/*/MG/S/B/*/*/Cu/Fe/Mn/Mo/*/Zn

Flourish Comprehensive:
N/P/K/Ca/Mg/S/B/Cl/Co/Cu/FeMn/Mo/Na/Zn

I have been using RO water in my aquarium from day one. So I have a good idea what is in the water without testing. I know from experience just missing one nutrient Cu is enough to cause algae issues. I initially used Aqueon fertilizer and it didn't have Cu but was otherwise identical to Sachem. It proved to be a better algae fertilizer than a plant fertilizer.

I don't know why but most fertilizers lack at least one element. Even Tom Barr's EI method, or at least most EI fertilizers, don't have Calcium. My best guess is that most companies and Tom expect tap water to supply some of the nutrients. With CO2 and higher light and nutrients your water was probably depleted in calcium, chlorine, and sodium within a day of the water change. Wikipedia does have a good article listing all elements found in plants. Not all of which are essential:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Plant_nutrition

My small aquarium worked well with Flourish comprehensive , I just had a small patch of hair algae and that refused to go away and since it was in a moss I could not remove it. However my aquarium occasionally went high in phosphates.

I decided earlier this year to switch Sachem trace and added flourish Iron, potassium, nitrogen thinking this would keep my phosphates under better control. Now all of the above doesn't have Ca or Mg but I have been adding claim carbonate, and magnesium carbonate for some time for my snails and shrimp. Technically it is soluble in water but only in small amounts. Only my Anacharis is growing and the snails and shrimp are doing well. My other plants aren't doing much and the hair algae has spread throughout the tank.

While researching your problem I might have figured out my issue.I am now thinking that while the carbonate is soluble, plants might not be able to use it. And according to Wikipedia article above calcium deficiency can affect root development before it affects the rest of the plant. My Anacharis has good roots. but at least one plant doesn't. I don't know on the others because I cannot see enough without pulling them out. I have put some calcium chloride on order to resolve that.

So thank you for helping me.

 

[Ch4rlie]

Thanks for that detailed post.

Do you know, I actually did suspect Calcium defiencency played a part in this after doing my own research during that time but I being no scientist could not be sure if that was the case. Nice to have the back up of my suspicion.

One of my other tanks does see the loss of quite a few snails and suspect again that the lack of calcium is playing its part here as well.

Wonder if can add some calcium somehow. You mention Calcium chloride, wonder if that may work if just add small dosages once a week or so.

Am really pleased that this post has helped you figure out some of your issues and that's exactly why I post threads and comments, in the hope it will help others avoid some of my mistakes and help their knowledge of fishkeeping.

 

[Ch4rlie]

Calcium chloride am assuming that includes salt and would that affect th eshrimps and snails in any way?

But if the dosages are pretty small, therefore would not be enough salt to have that much of an effect?

Like I said, am no scientist but I try.....

 

[StevenF]

Calcium chloride am assuming that includes salt and would that affect th eshrimps and snails in any way?

Calcium chloride is a salt with the chemical formula of CaCl2: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Calcium_chloride

Seachem does list CaCl2 and MgCl2 in its ingredients list. In fact most micro or trace elements in fertilizers are chloride or sulfate salts. Salts don't have free chlorine in them so they don't directly effect the animals in the tank.

HOWEVER plants only need a small amount of Chlorine compared to Calcium. So if the chlorine has no where to go It will cause a PH drop that could be harmfull. In my aquarium filter I have calcium carbonate Ca(C03)2 That will react with any free chlorine creating CaCl2. So as long as you have some calcium carbonate in the tank acids should stay under control. Other than calcium and chlorine the other missing elements may have not caused your slow plant growth. They are apparently sometimes used to by plants as temporary substitues to fill in for other elements that are in short supply.

 

[StevenF]

I should get the calcium chloride tomorrow. It may not take that long to determine if it will resolved my issue. I will let you know how it goes.

 

[Ch4rlie]

Perfect

 

[DrRob]

I use Calcium chloride if I'm messing with the water, a bag goes a long way, but I've found it relatively hard to get it to dissolve in the format it comes in (most of the stuff I've seen is in flakes), well worth crushing before trying to add it to anything.

 

[Ch4rlie]

I use Calcium chloride if I'm messing with the water, a bag goes a long way, but I've found it relatively hard to get it to dissolve in the format it comes in (most of the stuff I've seen is in flakes), well worth crushing before trying to add it to anything.

Am not really wanting to mess with the water parameters if I can help it.

What am hoping for is to add a little calcium to help with the snails, as they seem to be dying off and am not 100% sure why, the shrimps and fish all appear to be perfectly fine. Something is killing the snail and I'd like to try adding some calcium to see if this helps stop the mortality rate.

But that is a great tip about crushing the flakes (not that I have bought any yet though) before adding to the tank, wonder if worth taking some tank water in a small jug or something and add crushed calcium and hope it dissolves the in this jug this way before adding to the tank.....

 

[Baccus]

Just wondering if you had thought about perhaps adding either lava rock or mineral balls to your tank? I have lava rocks in my tanks and over time they slowly break down, during that process I am guessing that plants/ shrimp/ snails could be gaining minerals.
I also recently (well a few months ago now) added shrimp mineral balls to a couple of my tanks. There are three types of ball that I have seen but almost all tend to claim the same thing of stabilising pH and gH and slowly releasing essential minerals mainly for shrimp. The balls also tend to come in various sizes and they come with instructions usually for what sized ball will treat what sized tank/ water volume. The balls are also reputed to last any where from 6-12 months.
When I first added the balls the cherry shrimp where quite interested in them but now I rarely see them on the balls, while in my native tank the native shrimp where not really interested but the native snails where. I put this initial interest and now lack of interest down to the shrimp/ snails where needing something in the balls but now they are getting whatever mineral they lacked more readily/ frequently so there is not a mad scramble for the balls.
Just an idea that you might find helpful with your snails, especially if you do not want to go playing around too much with your water chemistery.
I am not sure if any pet shops over your way would sell these shrimp balls, but there are plenty to choose from online from places like eBay.

 

[Ch4rlie]

That's an interesting option, I will certainly have a look at both the mineral balls and the lava rock, don't think I've seen either in any lfs at all.

Will see if it's available at all online.

Will let you know, thanks

 

[Baccus]

Just to get you one the right track
http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/6-x-LARG...543049?hash=item2a71d703c9:g:M-AAAOSwFMZWs4k1

I did ask on a shrimp forum which mineral balls they thought was better option of the 3 types I have seen available and the replies where stick with the Tourmaline based, but that was only because they had not experienced the other type that is Porphyries Andesite based.
I know there are lots available from Hong Kong and Asia in general I just don't know just how fussy the UK is about importing certain things.

 

[StevenF]

The Calcium chloride arrive. Just before I used it, it occurred to me it might react with the potassium sulfate and Magnesium sulfate. I did a quick test and yes they do react creating Calcium sulfate which is not water soluble and not useful to plants. Basically I learned that if you mix sulfates with calcium you will likely end up deficient in calcium, deficient in sulfur, or deficient in both. This is probably what has been going on in my tank for some time. It also partially explains whey Tom Barr doesn't talk much about calcium fertilizer.

Most of the time when I read about EI they just list the recipes for different sized tanks. However on the Barrreport I found Tom calls for fertilizing with macros one day and then the next fertilizing with trace the next. (Trace fertilizers typically have some sulfur). In fact another web site advises farmer to alternate sulfate fertilizer and calcium fertilizers. So it looks like I need to go to an alternating fertilizing method. I haven't decided how exactly I am going to go about doing that. I have looked at all common calcium and sulfur fertilziers I can think of and all seem to have this issue.

If you want to try calcium chloride you might want to try Seachem repenish 100ml which is a mix of calcium, magnesium, and potassium chlorides. It costs about the same as the little bottle of just calcium chloride I purchased.

 

[Ch4rlie]

That makes quite a bit of sense actually.

I like the idea of alternating the fertilisers so the two do not clash and creat side effect of calcium sulfate but whether it would create so much as to cause an issue, am not sure and to be fair am not willing to try it to find out, heh.

But If I were you, would certainly go the alternating dosing method for sure.

Funnily enough I do already alternate my liquid ferts (both Tropica brands of Premium and Specialised) as I too had some suspicion that the two were never really intended to be dosed together that adds to the alternating method theory imho.

I am a fan of Tom Barr as well as George Farmer, are both their reports and articles always seems to make sense and both their experience re plants and aquascaping are really up there with the best. But almost chalk and cheese personalities

But yes, the information on EI ferts is never much aside for dosing regimes and have always suspected there are too many variables in each different tank and local waters to have a one size fits all dosing that works for everyone. Hence why am not trying EI again for the time being.

It is really is much appreciated about your findings and one that really is of interest, wonder if you should start your own thread abotu this? I'd follow it for one

 

[StevenF]

Just an update I cycled water e times this last week without fertilizer last week to reset it. I also completed a LED lamp project. My lighting is now as good as I can make it (2500 Lumens, 95CRI and very uniform). The old light hood was made for incandescent bulbs that are not available today and many off the shelf compact florescent and LED bulbs didn't fit.

I made a new batch of fertilizer. The A part is all my micro nutrient sand magnesium sulfate and potassium. The B part is just Calcium chloride. According to hydroponics web sites a 4 parts calcium (CaCL2) to 1 part magnesium (MgSO4) ratio is recommend. So I have 10ppmCA, 5ppm Mg, 6ppm K (KSO2), 5ppm nitrogen KNO3 and the rest Flourish trace, and flourish iron. Dosed it this morning and then an hour later added the CaCl2 about an hour later. The tank reach oxygen saturation in about 4 hours and the anacharis is now coated with small bubbles. The rest of my slower growing plants are not covered in bubbles but I have seen some limited growth starting earlier this week. So I think they are recovering. Also cyanobacteria in the substrate is also releasing occasional bubbles. This is about as good as i have ever seen it. when I was just using Flourish Comprehensive last time it was this good. Unlike FlourishThis current fertilizer doesn't have Phosphate always wants to climb if my plant growth isn't good. Note I do not have a CO2 system on this tank.

Overall this is starting to look promising.

 

[Ch4rlie]

Always a good sign to see pearling though have never seen Cyanobacteria pearling and TBH never want to. Heh.

Does does pretty complex.

The new light fitting sounds promising, very bright at 2,500 lumens. Hope that works out well.

Good luck