Clown Loach Strugling With Rapid Gill Movement

[jeanne-marie]

I seem to be killing my clowns! I lost a baby clown about a month ago. The only symptom is rapid gill movements and swimming vertically and stationary. I put him into a Q tank and treated for all gill problems I could think of but had to put him down - that broke my heart.

Since then my second baby has shown the same symptoms. I checked my water and this time it showed a trace of ammonia (due to uneaten food falling between pebbles). Water change and gravel vac sorted that. He showed signs of improvement within days. Still not sure if this is relevant to the illness as this spike seems to have been a one off and after the loss of the first baby.

But now one of my large clowns is showing exactly the same symptoms. I held off from using meds for a while to see if water changes would help but it didn't. Apart from that one slight ammonia reading, my water has been fine and I test it twice a week.

I spoke to my LFS who suggested I try an ICH treatment as they can get into the gills. No sign of white spot on any fish at this point so I was doubtful but I did complete the course of meds. No sign of WS on any fish before or after meds. During the treatment, the clown was laying stationary under some bog wood for the entire time. Not even coming out to eat. Gill movement showed no sign of improvement.

After the treatment he seemed to be worse so I took further advice and am now treating it with Sterazin for gill flukes. I carried out 2 x 30% water changes over 2 days and filtered over carbon for a day before adding the new meds. Since starting that treatment he is now permanently vertical behind my pump and gill movement is faster than before.

I have dropped my water level to increase O2.

I am really getting scared now as he is such a beauty and I really want to save him. I have been carrying out regular 20 - 30 % water changes once a week and I'm worried that I might now be over medicating him and shold just let good water quality sort him out. Can anyone help? I would really appreciate it if anyone else has had experience of this.

Tank size: 215 litres
pH: between 7 and 8 (test doesn't show in between!)
ammonia: 0
nitrite: 0
nitrate:10
tank temp:25C

Timeline (as I know the above description is quite rambling!)
1 month ago - lost baby clown.
This month:
Day 1 - Baby clown spotted with faster gill movement. Small trace of Ammonia present, large water change and gravel vac.
Day 2 - Water checked, back to zero. Partial water change. Baby still with some faster gill movement.
Day 3 - Baby clown back to normal.
Day 8 - Large clown rapid gill movement. Water tested fine but 30% weekly change carried out.
Day 11 - No improvement in clown so treated tank with Protozin. Water tested fine.
Day 15 - No improvement, clown hiding under wood.
(2 * 30% water changes on day 15 and 16, filtered over carbon then removed)
Day 17 - Started Sterazin treatment
Day 18 - Gill movement worse, hiding behind filter
Day 20 - No change. Water stats fine.

 

[glolite]

Clown loaches are scaleless so should be treated with half doses of some meds. They are basically very sensitive to water parameters so should never be introduced to a new set up, only established aquariums of 6 months old at least.

I'd hold off on the meds and just keep your water as clean as possible. Also, try adding stresscoat as your water conditioner and add slightly more than the recommended dose as clownloach are mega-sensitive to chlorine.

You could try adding garlic extract to their food as some people have had success with this. I'm not sure of quantities but google it to find out.

Clowns are nototiously difficult to establish because they react badly to being moved, so by the time they have been imported and taken to the lfs they're stressed anyway. Don't blame yourself just persevere. If you can get them established they are well worth it

 

[jeanne-marie]

Clown loaches are scaleless so should be treated with half doses of some meds. They are basically very sensitive to water parameters so should never be introduced to a new set up, only established aquariums of 6 months old at least.

I'd hold off on the meds and just keep your water as clean as possible. Also, try adding stresscoat as your water conditioner and add slightly more than the recommended dose as clownloach are mega-sensitive to chlorine.

You could try adding garlic extract to their food as some people have had success with this. I'm not sure of quantities but google it to find out.

Clowns are nototiously difficult to establish because they react badly to being moved, so by the time they have been imported and taken to the lfs they're stressed anyway. Don't blame yourself just persevere. If you can get them established they are well worth it

Thanks for the response. The tank is very well established and the meds used are designed for loaches so I've not had to half dose as I would with other treatments. I already double dose water with declorinator as our Water Board seem to add loads of chemicals at the weekend for some reason! I currently use King British SafeGuard but I will change this to Stresscoat if general thought is that it is superior. This is something that has happened in the tank over the last 2 months and it's very odd. I have 4 other tanks all kept in exactly the same manner as this one and I've not had a single problem let alone a death in any of them. I've ruled out stress as they've been in this tank for at least 6 months and have been shoaling, dancing and eating with great enthusiasm until this happened. It seems to be creeping through the clowns, starting with the babies (perhaps the most suceptible) and is now working it's way through the older ones. My other adults and the baby are currently showing no signs thank goodness.

As I said, if anyone has had this problem of rapid gill movement in a clown and successfully saved the fish I would be very interested as I cannot find a single happy ending. I'm very worried!

 

[glolite]

That is very strange. I will keep my fingers crossed for you. Maybe try the garlic extract?

 

[WILDER]

Do any of the clowns look thin or bloated.
What does it look like when they go to the toilet.
Do the look pale or darker in colour.
Are the clowns acting listless and lethagic.
Any excess mucas on body or gills.
Any sgins of darting, flicking and rubbing, erratic swimming.
Do the gills look pale withe excess mucas or red and inflamed.
Can the clowns maintain there balance in the water.
What do you feed the fish.
Is there a white or greyish film on the clowns.

Bad water quality can make fish labour breath.
Also bad water quality can cause death,
Is there plenty of aeration in the tank.

 

[jeanne-marie]

Do any of the clowns look thin or bloated. NO
What does it look like when they go to the toilet. HAVEN'T SEEN ANY FAECES I'M AFRAID
Do the look pale or darker in colour. NO COLOUR CHANGE AT ALL ON BODY
Are the clowns acting listless and lethagic. YES, THE SICK ONE STAYS IN ONE PLACE UNLESS DISTURBED THEN SWINS AS USUAL TO ANOTHER HIDING PLACE.
Any excess mucas on body or gills. NO
Any sgins of darting, flicking and rubbing, erratic swimming. SLIGHT FLICKING SEEN ON THE OTHER CLOWNS AND SOME TANK MATES PRIOR TO TREATING WITH THE ICH MEDS
Do the gills look pale withe excess mucas or red and inflamed. GILLS DO HAVE A SLIGHT REDNESS TO THEM ON THE OUTSIDE
Can the clowns maintain there balance in the water. YES
What do you feed the fish. FLAKE DAILY, TUBIFEX AND / OR FROZEN MIXED CUBES OCCASIONALLY
Is there a white or greyish film on the clowns. NO

Bad water quality can make fish labour breath. I THOUGHT THIS COULD BE THE CASE BUT THE WATER READINGS HAVE BEEN PERFECT SINCE THAT ONE FOOD RELATED SPIKE A COUPLE OF MONTHS AGO.
Also bad water quality can cause death,
Is there plenty of aeration in the tank. I'M USING THE THREE STAGE OVERHEAD FILTRATION BUILT INTO MY AQUAONE AR980. I HAVE LOWERED THE WATER LEVEL TO CAUSE MORE SPLASH ON RE-ENTRY. THIS HAS BEEN LOWER FOR A WEEK.

Thank you for your help!

My first suspicion was whitespot and that it had got into his gills. The flashing and flicking of tank mates prior to treatment seems to indicate some kind of irritant had made it's way into the tank.

I have completed the whitespot treatment, the flashing has stopped and there has been no other sign at all. However, I did use protozin, which treats a wide range of fungus and velvet related infections so it might not have been ICH at all.

Also, if it does turn out to be that it's obviously got so far into his gills the meds are useless.

 

[WILDER]

Were the clowns flicking before the med.

It could be bacterial gill rot to gill flukes.

Signs of gills flukes are.

Red inflamed gills or pale gills with excess slime.
Flicking and rubbing.
Erratic swimming, darting.
Laboured breathing or gasping at surface of tank.
Weightloss sometimes.
Fish will sometimes swim in a jerky movement.
Sores on the body of the fish.
Spitting food out.

Flukes cause bacterial infections. In there hooks or sucker they carry a nasty bacteria which enters the fish once it pierces the skin.
If you suspect flukes you have to back up with a bacterial med.

Once parasites invade the gills a fish rarely makes it.

 

[jeanne-marie]

Were the clowns flicking before the med.

It could be bacterial gill rot to gill flukes.

Signs of gills flukes are.

Red inflamed gills or pale gills with excess slime.
Flicking and rubbing.
Erratic swimming, darting.
Laboured breathing or gasping at surface of tank.
Weightloss sometimes.
Fish will sometimes swim in a jerky movement.
Sores on the body of the fish.
Spitting food out.

Flukes cause bacterial infections. In there hooks or sucker they carry a nasty bacteria which enters the fish once it pierces the skin.
If you suspect flukes you have to back up with a bacterial med.

Once parasites invade the gills a fish rarely makes it.

I treated the tank first for flukes when the baby started to struggle. He responded to treatment but the flicking started. I think it might have be a reaction to the first wave of meds as opposed to ICH.

Like I said before, I've yet to find a post where the clown makes it :sad

I'm treating for gill flukes now with the Sterazin but the second dose has gone in and there's no apparent improvement. What bacterial med would you recommend and when should I use it? I do have a Q tank but I'm afraid that moving him would cause undue stress when he is already weak. Also, if I've got flukes and bacteria in the tank I should treat the lot shoudn't I?

 

[WILDER]

Meds can make fish flick and rub.
Also you must increase aeration with the meds.

I would order some wormer plus.
You can use bacterial meds with this product.
Anti internal bacteria med by interpet.

Once the med arrives do a water change and run some black carbon for two days.

If the fish are flicking and rubbing with slighly inflamed gills it can be parasites, toxins, bad water quality.
Has anything gotten into the tank.

Take a look here.
http/www.aquarticles.com/articles/manage..._sick_fish.html

 

[jeanne-marie]

Meds can make fish flick and rub.
Also you must increase aeration with the meds.

I would order some wormer plus.
You can use bacterial meds with this product.
Anti internal bacteria med by interpet.

Once the med arrives do a water change and run some black carbon for two days.

If the fish are flicking and rubbing with slighly inflamed gills it can be parasites, toxins, bad water quality.
Has anything gotten into the tank.

OK thanks, so I can use wormer plus and anti-internal together?

I've got the anti internal by interpet. Should I finish the flukes course first? It runs for another 7 days?

I'm pretty sure something has got in to irritate them. I have three other tanks and have not have one death or had to run any treatments in any of them. It's just this one so I'm quite sure my housekeeping is fine. I have had a couple of lethargic female livebearers in there over the past 6 months that didn't make it but I just thought it was one of those things. Maybe something more sinister at work?

 

[WILDER]

It points 4 ways, toxins, irratation, bad water quality, parasites.
I wouldn't expect to see flicking and rubbing with a bacterial infection.

I would do a water change and just add the correct amount of med back to water removed.

Yes you can use the bacterial med with wormer plus.

 

[jeanne-marie]

It points 4 ways, toxins, irratation, bad water quality, parasites.
I wouldn't expect to see flicking and rubbing with a bacterial infection.

I would do a water change and just add the correct amount of med back to water removed.

Yes you can use the bacterial med with wormer plus.

OK thanks, I had been worried that it was water quality /some kind of irritant and I was just chucking meds at it, increasing the problem for the poor little lad! I will order the wormer plus, do a water change and keep treating for flukes (replacing meds as appropriate to water removed). In 7 days when that course is finished I'll do a 30% water change, filter over carbon for 24 hours, do another 30% and start treating with the internal bac and wormer meds.

Fingers crossed. If we can save this one I will be posting the results on the web as I've never found a single happy ending with these symptoms. I cried so hard when I lost the baby and I dread to think what it will be like having to dig a 5 inch grave in the garden for this beautiful chap.

Many thanks, I'll keep you posted.
xxxxxx

 

[WILDER]

Its not nice when you lose fish so do know how you feel.

Finish the waterlife course and then get back to the board.

 

[jeanne-marie]

Its not nice when you lose fish so do know how you feel.

Finish the waterlife course and then get back to the board.

Hello!

Finished a course of Sterazin and the Protozin. Had to go away for a week so left my partner with instructions to do 2 x WC while I was away.

Got home and the Clown loach is still fighting. He's still struggling with gills, hanging vertical right at the very top of the tank, his mouth has gone from being open to appearing to be disappearing and his fins have started to disappear (no dis-colouration but looks like chunks have been bitten out of them). I'm pretty sure he now has columnaris. If it wasn't the cause of his initial gill infection (which is probable) it has certainly now hit him as a secondary infection.

I can't get any maracyn or maracyn 2 in the local area. Any suggestions for alternatives? He's not lost any weight and was eating when I left. Very stringy and transparent when going to the toilet.

I also noticed a bit of white fuzz around the mouths of a couple of black mollies I inherited (I know they're brackish and my tank isn't ideal for them).

 

[WILDER]

How much of his mouth has rotted away.
Can you issolate him and use an antibitic like tetracycline.
Best to use antibiotics in issolation as they wipe the benefical bacteria out in the filter.

It's not sounding to good i'm afraid.

I see you are in the uk. Maracyn products can only buy online I think.
You can only get antibiotics from a vet in this country.