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Cleaning substrate

seangee

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How often do you all move your bogwood / furniture to clean under them.

I usually use a battery gravel vac about an hour before water change. I split the tank into sections so I can move stuff out, clean up and put it back in roughly the same place. That way when I do the change the fish have all their usual hiding places available.

Its not just an idle question though. One side of my tank (around 25%) is covered in bogwood, with 7 fairly substantial chunks of wood on top of sand. I'm thinking of expanding this upwards into a "wall" 3 or 4 layers deep. The downside is I probably wouln't want to dismantle the wall too often to do a proper vac underneath it. It is on the cleaner side of the tank as I feed down the other end over the sand (and turn my filters off at feeding time).

I do have MTS in the tank. So question is if I do this how often should I dismantle the wall? A second question is if I introduce territorial species what would be the impact of periodically altering the cave system. Not a major problem at the moment but I do get a bit of squabling amongst the Sids for a couple of days after a significant re-organise :rolleyes:
 
I never move anything. I don’t even vac the gravel and I don’t have problems with it ever. I have several filter feeding shrimp and I think it’s a good thing not to have the tank be too clean. For water changes I just use a pump to get the water out.
 
battery gravel vac, sounds kinda fancy :) I just use a basic model gravel cleaner like the one in the following link.
http://www.about-goldfish.com/aquarium-cleaning.html

Gravel clean up to and around the wood wall each time you do a water change gravel clean. Then about once a month move the wood and gravel clean under it.

Taking the wall apart and cleaning under it, then reassembling it should not upset territorial fishes that much. If you have a pr of cichlids with eggs or young that might upset them but for the rest of the time it shouldn't be a problem.
 
Gravel clean up to and around the wood wall each time you do a water change gravel clean. Then about once a month move the wood and gravel clean under it.
Cool I was thinking about once a month.

Yeah I usually use a regular siphon. Forgot I had the battery one till I found it a few weeks ago. It has a little internal bag so you clean the bottom and the water pumps back into the tank. Changed batteries, cleaned the contacts and it works fine. Quick and mess free way to clean the bottom when you don't want to change water - or SWMBO aanounces that the tank is dirty and she has guests arriving in 5 minutes :whistle:
 
Forgot I had the battery one till I found it a few weeks ago. It has a little internal bag so you clean the bottom and the water pumps back into the tank. Changed batteries, cleaned the contacts and it works fine. Quick and mess free way to clean the bottom when you don't want to change water - or SWMBO aanounces that the tank is dirty and she has guests arriving in 5 minutes :whistle:

This is not recommended. As you "dig up" the substrate, the water that comes up should be sucked out of the tank and discarded. You could poison the fish otherwise, depending upon the depth and condition of the substrate.

To answer your original question, I never touch under wood or rock if I do vacuum into the substrate. You want anaerobic zones, it is party of a healthy biological system. In most tanks I do not touch the substrate at all, but I have plants in some areas that deal with this and other areas are best left alone. If I do any aquascaping such as moving plants around, I will deep vacuum around the plants as I pull them up. And in my tank of breeding cories, I do vacuum the open areas of sand. But not otherwise.
 
I never really touch the sand and rarely remove any decor (heavily planted tank) - I use a submersible pump for water changes and just pump out the water I intend to replace. I let the Cory's, the MTS, and nature manage the substrate. But then the beauty of sand is that little, if any, detritus gets down under.
No surprise, @Byron is correct on two counts. 1) Unless you have a very thin substrate layer, the battery vac could bring up dangerous gases from anaerobic regions of the substrate which could be very detrimental, if not lethal to stock. 2) There is a very intricate biology that develops in the substrate. In the upper layer there is plenty of oxygen where aerobic bacteria thrive. As we go deeper the O2 is less and different types of bacteria reside. It is best whenever possible to not disturb these layers. Oh sometimes we must and these layers will rebuild, but it's best to just leave it alone.
 
I only clean up under wood/rocks/etc when I re-scape the tank, which isn't very often. I use a plain old gravel vacuum to siphon out the water and depending on the tank, I will press into the substrate to get the build up of mulm and what not.
 
This is not recommended. As you "dig up" the substrate, the water that comes up should be sucked out of the tank and discarded. You could poison the fish otherwise, depending upon the depth and condition of the substrate
I didn't mean into the substrate. I only hover an inch above the sand to suck up any organic material sitting on it. I actually do this most days (without moving anything). Is the suggestion to just leave what I can't see or reach and let nature take its course?
 
I didn't mean into the substrate. I only hover an inch above the sand to suck up any organic material sitting on it. I actually do this most days (without moving anything). Is the suggestion to just leave what I can't see or reach and let nature take its course?

I don't do even this in most tanks. I must say that I also never see stuff on the substrate anyway. It tends to get pulled in (there is a normal and natural water movement from the tank down through the substrate and then back up into the tank, caused by the warmer substrate due to the bacterial decomposition creating this warmth) and broken down rapidly by snails and then bacteria. My cories do stir up some microscopic particulate matter sufficient to slightly cloud the water when they are all out feeding on the sinking pellets/disks etc, but all of this is natural and harmless.

I think most of us in this thread have said to leave the substrate under wood and rock alone. I have had tanks running for I suppose five or six years from set-up [I tend to re-set them now and then as I move different fish around, normally not for 3-4 years though] with never messing with the substrate. As was pointed out earlier, if one is going to disturb anaerobic patches one does then have to be very careful.
 
Well that's very interesting. I have always followed the advice that its best to avoid anaerobic regions by regularly stirring the sand. Does anyone have links to on-line resources or more info. I'm not questioning the advice - but would like to understand better. Google has thrown up more articles / blogs suggesting that it should be avoided than encouraged.
I use playsand and the average depth is around 2", but I find flat surfaces boring so in the tank the depth ranges from around 1 - 4"
 
Well that's very interesting. I have always followed the advice that its best to avoid anaerobic regions by regularly stirring the sand. Does anyone have links to on-line resources or more info. I'm not questioning the advice - but would like to understand better. Google has thrown up more articles / blogs suggesting that it should be avoided than encouraged.
I use playsand and the average depth is around 2", but I find flat surfaces boring so in the tank the depth ranges from around 1 - 4"

There are several things in this hobby that have been stated for decades, but which are no longer as accurate or correct as might have once been assumed. I will cut/paste from an article I wrote on bacteria some years ago, as this should answer the question.

The bacteria responsible for this nitrification process of converting ammonia to nitrite to nitrate are termed nitrifying. But the nitrogen cycle is only complete (in aquaria) when it includes de-nitrification; in this stage, different bacteria that are termed denitrifying convert nitrate into nitrogen gas which is released back into the atmosphere. There are also bacteria that use nitrate and produce oxygen. All of these live in the substrate. There are filters being marketed now that include (to some degree) this denitrification. [Another component of the complete nitrogen cycle in nature but not present in our aquaria involves the “fixing” of atmospheric nitrogen by cyanobacteria and other life forms.]

Denitrifying bacteria are heterotrophic bacteria, and there are several species; they utilize nitrate by consuming the oxygen within nitrate and releasing nitrogen gas. They do not require free oxygen in the water so they are facultative anaerobes, and generally occur in what we term “dead spots,” which occur when water movement is stopped and thus no oxygen is available. These are the good guys among heterotrophs, since de-nitrification is important in a healthy aquarium. And they will naturally occur in the lower level of the substrate, and under chunks of wood and rock. And as I said, there are filters being made now that encourage this stage as well as the first.

The waste control bacteria are species of heterotrophic bacteria that break down dead organic matter like fish waste, dead fish or plant matter, uneaten fish food, dead bacteria, etc. Some are aerobic, but many species are facultative anaerobes, able to live with or without oxygen. Like all bacteria, they colonize surfaces, and these are most prevalent in the substrate and the filter media. Many species can survive complete drying, allowing them to remain potent even when filter media that has been previously used is completely dry. These bacteria have only one requirement to appear and live: organics. They compete with autotrophic bacteria for both oxygen and surface area; studies show that even in relatively clean environments, they occupy more than 50% of the available surface area.

The greatest population of bacteria in a healthy balanced aquarium occurs in the substrate, not the filter. The floc or humic compost that collects in the substrate is the host for the biofilms; this is why the substrate in planted tanks should never be disturbed significantly, and many aquarists apply this to non-planted tanks as well.

In very general terms, aerobic nitrification takes place in the top 1-2 inches of the substrate; anaerobic de-nitrification takes place approximately 2-4 inches down, and anaerobic bacteria producing hydrogen sulfide occurs in substrates deeper than 3-4 inches. In all three cases, it will be deeper in coarse substrates (like pea gravel) and more shallow in finer substrates such as sand. These generalities will also vary with the presence of live plant roots and substrate “diggers” such as snails and worms, since these factors result in more oxygen being made available in the substrate, reducing anaerobic bacteria activity. An oxygen level in the substrate of as little as 1 ppm promotes nitrogen reduction rather than sulfur reduction (hydrogen sulfide).

Maintaining a substrate of fine gravel or sand no deeper than 4 inches, having live plants rooted in the substrate, and keeping Malaysian Livebearing snails are the best and safest methods of providing a healthy biological system for aerobic and denitrifying anaerobic bacteria. I have usually 2 inches overall of sand for my substrates, built up deeper in some areas and less (1/2 to 1 inch) in others. I don't have much anaerobic activity with these shallow depths, so I leave the areas under wood and rock alone to make up.
 
Thanks Byron. I guess that means my driftwood wall is coming soon :)
 
you should all try to keep the substrate clean because the more gunk in the gravel, the more likelihood of harmful pathogens living in the gunk. And if you ever have to treat a tank, the more gunk, the less effective the medication will be. Extra gunk is also going to lower the pH more quickly.

An aquarium is not like a river. It is a closed system so we need to keep the substrate as clean as possible. The exception to this is if you have a 4inch sand substrate to remove nitrate, or grow plants. You can leave the gunk around the plant roots but keep the rest of the substrate clean. And if sand, then you shouldn't have much gunk getting in to it.

Having said that, do whatever you want.
 
Off to LFS yesterday and spent most of the day boiling up bits of wood. Created a driftwood reef this morning rather than a wall. Partly because I never got as much wood as I initially planned (bought all their nice pieces :p) but also because I feared the original plan of starting at the tank wall and building outwards would create too many opportunities for fish to be trapped during water changes.

Please with the result which is generating a lot of interest from the population. Hope thats not the last I see of my Bristlenose. He has dived straight into the depths and not been seen since. Base is around 12"x12" and 9" high.
 

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is that side or front view?

what about standing the wood upright so its like fence posts?
 

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