Cichlid related crisis/catastrophe- GETS WORSE!!

[Maroonostrich]

Ok, so I rang Trimar.

I explained that I had lost the male and that the two females were suspected males.

They stated that the death must be my Ph. I am not sure how to react to this- obviously I had lost all my pygmies but thought that was more them being eaten to death than them being affected by the water- I did not tell them that- couldn't quite admit it!! I've had new fish, from another supplier, between deliveries.

They have asked me to keep an eye on the remaining two and call back if I still suspect that they are male in a few days. Not sure anythings going to be done.



What a nightmare.

 

[tttnjfttt]

Exactly what is your pH if that is the excuse they are using?

 

[Maroonostrich]

I'm taking a water sample to get exact current levels checked by my local supplier today. My ph has always been 'fine' but I never asked the exact level- I don't own a kit but have it checked at the same place where I get my fish usually.

If even one of my other fish had mysteriously died I would have panicked earlier but the fish from my regular supplier have been tough little critters.

 

[jollysue]

Absolutely do not do business with them again, and tell everyone that they are a nightmare to do business with if something goes wrong. Do freeze the little bodies just in case you have a chance to get them checked.

Take an ad in the paper! Post every day in every forum on the net that they are bad to do business with.



Send Wilder and The Wolf and call out the Marines

Did Timar admit that you had ordered a female and that they were to send one?

If you are not going to try to get reimbursed for the cories. Tell them you were not prepared for fry and you were between a rock and a hard place to house them safely. That it might have turned out differently if you had expected such young stock. If you aren't going to pursue a return for them you don't need to tell them everything except that you were unprepared to handle such juvie stock.

Tell them you are embarrassed and concerned. If they then try to take advantage of your vulnerability cry Rape!

Ask them for return packaging and postal so you can send a water sample, bodies etc

Tell them that the only stock you have had trouble with is what they have sent you and that you are very concerned for your estblished aquarium. How do you know that what killed the cories was being eaten? They may have been dead first.

If they want to play the blame game then there's nothing much you can do. Except go to war. For me that is never worth it; I have high blood pressure.

The more honest you are the less excuse they have. You will behave differently if you are disceptive with them. They will know something is hinkey (unless you are pathological.)

I haven't found that I get far by being accusatory. My son is a Marine. It works for him. but not for me. If people are not fair, they aren't fair. Give them a chance to be fair and work with you, be as honest as is necessary and consider the rest to not be their business. Treat it as a problem and that you must work with them together to get it resolved. If it is about the money, you will not be satisfied with honor only the money. You shouldn't listen to me then and my advice won't work for you.

For me it is about conflict resolution and getting closure.

ttnjftt is heading you in the right direction. No one can guarantee they will do the right thing.

You can't control their behavior.

Good work grabing the little bugger, and taking charge!

 

[lucky62]

Sorry you're having these problems , see I told you , not many people can sex these fish , simply because males look so different from females , even the people bagging the fish .

I have opened boxes containing dead fish , 2 shipments [ different suppliers , 12 golden eyes in all [ I didn't even have a chance ].

I dealt with a very good shipper through aquabid [ different species of fish ] , the guy gave very good instructions on acclimatizing fish .I'll pm you .



My PH is 7.0 , these fish can go a little higher , but are said to do better lower , just nothing too sudden .

When I get new arrivals I like to do daily water changes of 5 to 10% , using conditioner and matching the temp as close as possible .

Always expect your new fish to be stressed , be ready with a treatment plan , the water changes , addition of aquarium salt or appropriate medicine if the need presents itself .

 

[Maroonostrich]

Thanks JS for keeping me upbeat on all this!! Lucky 62- about to PM you, thanks for your advice throughout, been invaluable.

Well I'm back from the grand testing- bearing in mind this water had had a small dead fish floating in it for a few hours too!

Ph came back at 7.5.

Trimar state 'Our fish are packed in Ph 7- 7.5 (unless specified differently) we expect your water to be very similar.'

So it is NOT that- unless water ph can go normal to fatal within about 14 hours?

Nitrites were 100% fine.


I love my regular supplier! He says that whenever fish are transported the stress can kill- it happens all the time for retailers that a lot of shipments will contain 1 or 2 dead individuals. My tank is a safe environment.

He sold me his most feminine looking golden eye and I think- I think- I saw her do the colour change when approached by one of the youngsters from trimar...

Maybe am just seeing things...!!

Still we'll see....


AS for trimar......



Now look, I know I lost the pygmy cories- I'll accept that as a loss that I could have prevented somehow. The other female, yes ok, that too...

This male? He was the biggest fish in the tank really and completely unhassled. I can't accept that I have caused that, especially as my water is in great nick.




Am I within my rights to politely request a refund of his value (more a gesture than anything really, he's worth under 4 pounds) and agree that more progress on the young guys will be discussed after a few days of watching them settle...?

 

[aloaring]

I would say you are within your ights to ask for your money back. If you phone tri mar ask to speak to Monty(hes the boss) I've actaully dealt with tri mar before and had no problems with the fish i got. i'v even visited the store and can confirm that they look after their fish extremely well.
I used to have a pair of nannocara anomala, beutiful little fish and the pair i had were very hardy. I got mine when they were very young and it was impossible to tell the difference between them it was only when they were older i could tell. and i beleive they do get along better in groups than in pairs , mine had to be seperated in the end. I remember seeing recently that Swansea Maindenhead aquatics had a fantastic breeding pair in and they were very large and healthy if you have a maidenhead near you it may be worth asking them to order some in for you.

 

[Rivermud76]

Maroon, let me first state that I feel and understand your frustration. But, i think other information would be dead helpful in trying to determine what the cause for your problems is. When you say the nitrates are "fine" what exactly does that mean? The numbers are what I am looking for. You need a reading of your Ammonia, Nitrates, and Nitrites.

To address your PH issue, it really isn't as important as other factors that contribue to your PH. Dissolved Solids are an important thing to check on when dealing with softwater fish. Won't go into much detail on it now but if need be we'll jump into it later.

How large is your tank? What kind of plants do you keep in it? Are you adding plant fertilizers? Do you use any sort of CO2? What tempterature are you running your tank at? These are all questions that need answered in order to come to some sort of diagnosis whether its an issue with your tank or with the supplies of fish you have been receiving.

Good Luck.

 

[Maroonostrich]

Actually Aloaring, the interesting thing about these fish is I was waiting for them and they literally had them in then I placed my order... They came in Tuesday night and were on the road again Wednesday, arriving Thursday.

I wanted to be able to use trimar again in the future as they are so handy, reasonably priced and deliveries have been on time, but obviously I'm real torn over it now, recovery of a couple of quid would go a heck of a long way to restoring a bit of faith that they do care..!

 

[jollysue]

Yes they should resolve this mess in a satisfactory way. Do they have a warranty?

I agree with aloaring, completely. The thing that has been a hitch in your side of the negotiations is the first embarrasment regarding the cories. I DID NOT mean to imply that they have no responsibility for those fish. I think that it is as likely that they died from stress.

It was only that you had some issues about revisiting that subject. Personnally, I would let them have the water samples if they ask--expecting them to pay for the shipping. Ask to talk to aloaring's person and lay the thing out for him and let him resolve the thing.

I'm sure that you are a better fish keeper that many customers they ship to. Most sellers only expect the water to test right, I believe.

I think I'll go buy some fish, come home and do some water changes. I need a 12 step program.

 

[SarahBravo]

I've dealt with Trimar and found them to be good. I think you should give them the opportunity to put things right. I can't believe that they would refuse to give a refund or credit against future purchases as they have such an excellent reputation.

Gather up all the information about your tank - volume, inhabitants, ammonia/nitrite/nitrate/ph/kh readings, temperature etc and get back to them. Tell them how you acclimated the new fish and give them all the info and ask what could have gone wrong. If there's nothing wrong with your tank or your handling then it must be stressed fish and Trimar have a responsibility. You said they received them and shipped them the same day - I'm surprised they didn't wait/quarantine stock before sending it out. Mention this to them - how do they know the fish were in good condition?

Like Jollysue said, don't be accusatory, just tell them you've lost most of the fish you've received from them and are (understandably!!!) unhappy.

All the guys at Trimar have been really patient with me, letting me witter on about my tanks and what I wanted, and suggesting good fish to have. They genuinely seemed interested and prepared to spend time making sure I got what I wanted.

Certainly worth a phone call to Monty I think!

 

[playfulalliecat]

I am really surprised as I have always heard really good things about Trimar as a company. Although, I do know that problems can arise even with the best, most knowledgeable suppliers.

My question is exactly how did you acclimate these fish? It's obvious that they had to have been very stressed to have just been shipped to Trimar and then directly to you.....all within 3 days. I know ph can change slightly over time. Nitrates from infrequent water changes can change your ph but its takes quite a while for this to happen. Just wondering could the ph in the bagged water with the fish have adjusted from the added waste, chemicals most suppliers add during shipping to protect from ammonia spikes, or something of that nature. It is possible that they were over-stressed or diseased in some way upon reaching Trimar but were not there long enough for them to tell. There are many variables in this equation and some may never be proven or answered.

As for venting the fish, a lot of places will not do that. I have only seen one person in all the places I have purchased fish who even knew how to do this properly. I have asked numerous owner's of lfs and few, I have spoken with, know anything at all about it. It is really hard to tell, especially in cichlids where the juveniles are so similar in color, shape, and size. I do feel they should have told you that sex could not be guaranteed if this is the case. Normally, people who deal in cichlids will tell you to buy a group of at least 7, this usually ensures in both sexes, as well as enabling them to make their own choice in partners. Cichlids who choose their own mates will produce more healthy offspring and be better parents, in most cases. I understand that this isn't always possible but in the case of buying juveniles for the purpose of later breeding, it does seem the best method. The best is to purchase a proven breeding pair which has already produced fry but that isn't always easy to find or monetarily possible.

My advice is to keep the lines of communication with Trimar open. As I stated, I have always heard good reports from people who have dealt with them and I am sure they will want to take care of this problem as much as you do. Most businesses really do not want to lose customers or get a lot of negativity started about their company.

HTH

 

[playfulalliecat]

Hey wanted to check in with you and see how things are going?

You haven't posted back yet so I was just curious as to see if your issues have been resolved.

 

[jollysue]

Yeah?

 

[Maroonostrich]

Sorry to keep everyone in suspenders there!!!

Just had a busy weekend!

I emailed Monty direct Friday, explained that all water parameters were A-ok etc.. and simply requested a refund on the recently lost male.

IMO he just had not travelled well- he looked quite thin on close inspection so I'd frozen his little body in case they asked for it.

This refund was given right away- I'm not sure if I have store credit or a refund, either way it's all I asked and it's what I received... so I appreciate it- at least I feel a bit 'looked after'!

As far as the little cichlids go- well they are certainly behaving like little boys at the moment! Anyone observed these little chaps trying to establish dominance in a group?! They posture with all their fins stuck out- pursue the other male to a standstill, then turn back to him and use their tail to beat him into submission!! UNLESS, this is a group female trait too. I don't know about that as I've never seen a group of girls!

The little guys ARE very young. I will grow them on a bit and see what happens.Their fins are a little bit raggedy but don't look sore or infected. It's not something I noticed in the bag or even when I first put them in the tank- now when I look closely I just see a small split in a fin here or there.

My LFS may take them in if they turn out to be boys. I can certainly locate a male with less difficulty so we'll just sit and keep fingers crossed!!

Basically I'm happy that the matter is resolved as well as it could be, given that I was not completely upfront about what happened to some of the fish. Honesty is the best policy I guess, however humiliating it may feel at the time!

I miss my lovely girl fish they sent me. She was PERFECT! And I miss poor old Dave. He was gorgeous too. That's the saddest part for me, I had my perfect pair really, it just didn't work out.


Trimar give a detailed list on how to acclimatise the fish- I followed this carefully- right down to lifting the fish out of the bag in a cupped hand and releasing into the tank rather than tipping in the tainted water. Incidentally I bought several packets of filter material at the same time- you get a discount if you are ordering in fish!!

I should have got hooked on something nice and easy to sex like guppies or something... *sigh*