Cardinal Tetras & Angelfish

[carmstrong]

Hey Fish keepers,
Hope everyone has had a great holiday!

Question,
I have a 36gal long freshwater aquarium currently housing 8 Cardinal Tetras and 2 Baby Angelfish. This tank has been running since August 2015.

I have never housed Angelfish before so I'm not sure how their behaviour is supposed to be but they seem to be staying at the back of the tank along with the Cardinals.

I thought perhaps my flow rate for the filters were too high so I lowered them down as far as they could go without jeopardizing proper filtration.

I am currently running a Top Fin 40 internal filter and a Fluval 206 external canister filter.
This tank used to be used for African Cichlids but I gave them away two weeks ago, hence the extra filters.

For the Angels, are they just shy and will they come out eventually? I see them peak out to the middle or front of the tank here and there but they do not come to the glass yet when I feed them. They have been in the tank for a week and are the size of a loonie (dollar coin). Do they just need to grow and become more confident in the tank?

And for the cardinals, do I need to get more than 8?
I am going to round it off to 10 this week but I didn't know if I needed more than 10 in a school. Some suggest online between 15-20.. I had also thought about adding 10 Harlequin Rasboras to mix things up.

There are plenty of fake plants in the tank for coverage, and they are using those plants to hid, just not at the front of the tank where I can see them. Lol

I will post a photo when I am at my Computer.

Any advice on both Cardinal Tetras and Angels would be greatly appreciated.

Thanks in advance!

 

[Jeremy180]

Plants (real or fake) and/or other decor for cover will help immensely here, the more the better.
EDIT: LOL sorry, read through the post too fast.
 
Maybe some less shy "dither" fish would help but I'm not sure which ones to recommend. Maybe some kind of corydoras?

 

[carmstrong]

Here is the FTS
 

 
I tried taking off the black background, perhaps it was creating shadows and spooking them or they think there are other fish in the tank due to the reflection.

 

[carmstrong]

Plants (real or fake) and/or other decor for cover will help immensely here, the more the better.
EDIT: LOL sorry, read through the post too fast.
 
Maybe some less shy "dither" fish would help but I'm not sure which ones to recommend. Maybe some kind of corydoras?

 
Yea, thought about getting 5 Peppered Cory's as well, have to pck and choose based on my stocking capability
 
Thanks for the tip

 

[Mark Z.]

I like your tank!

 

[carmstrong]

Thank you Mark

 

[Akasha72]

Hi carmstrong, there's something here that jumps out straight away. You mentioned this tank being home to african cichlids previously and I'm wondering if there is a problem with the water.
African cichlids are hard water fish - the harder the better in fact - but angels, cardinals, harlequins and the cories you mention are all soft water fish - the softer the better. You have fish there that are complete opposites of the pH/gH/kH scale. Firstly we need to assertain what type of water you have, is it soft or hard and what is the pH.  Hard water is alkaline and soft water is acidic.
You've also mentioned the fish being spooked, you could help this by adding some floating plants to deflect the light or by going black water (staining the water yellow/brown) as this would re-create their natural enviroment. 
I used to have natural coloured substrate like yours (the tank is beautiful by-the-way) and I found it too bright when the lights were on and so did the fish. When I up-graded to a larger tank I changed to a dark substrate and planted it out more densely. It solved the issue.
 
Hopefully that may help. If you can find out about the water if might provide the answer. You could try looking on your water companies web-site if you don't have the ph/gH/kH kit

 

[carmstrong]

Hey Akasha,
I checked my readings this morning and this is what I got.

API Strip Kit:
Gh - 120-180
Kh - 120-180
Ph - 7-7.5

API Liquid Test kit:
High PH - 7.8-8.0
Low PH - 7.6

Unfortunately I don't have a liquid Gh, Kh test kit to get proper readings.

The substrate im using is pool sand, pure silica gel. Reading online many said it doesn't raise pH. I also have the same sand in another 15gal with Gourami's, Harleguins and a couple Platys.

The Tetras are active, swimming left and right on the tank, however they are doing all this at the back of the tank and not the front. I'm curious if it's because the current is the best there.
The Angels are hanging out by the filter intake and the heater, they seem to like that spot.

I just finished treating the tank with API Melafix because I had gotten some fish from different pet stores and didn't want to introduce any disease to the larger tank.
Unfortunately I do not have a hospital/ Quarantine tank set up due to lack of space.

I also did a 20% water change lastnight.

They are all eating and seem to be active so that's a good sign.

It would be perfect if I could just turn the tank around and all is good. Lol

 

[Akasha72]

The pH is slightly too high for angels in my opinion. They do well in pH levels of 6 to 7. Anything above that and they may struggle. That pH is perfect though for the fish you gave away! lol 
 
The tetra's would also prefer a lower pH but they are a little more forgiving and may do okay ... it's not perfect but then nothing in life ever is! You may be able to get the hardness reading from your local water company and I would expect to find that your water is 'slightly hard'
 
The melafix won't have done any harm, it's made from all natural substances and is designed to calm and heal. Many angel breeders use it to heal up torn fins from the spawning process. 
 
For now, look to see if you can find out from your water company how hard the water actually is. There are options to help soften the water, many bog woods will leach tannins and help to soften the water. You could also add some peat in a media bag to your filter. There are other members on the forum that could help you with the directions for this. My water is very soft already and so I've never had to soften it further.
 
I suspect the angels are stressed and so keeping a watch on them is advised. Cichlids suffer with something called Hexamita and it's brought on by stress. You can read about Hexamita here http/www.fishforums.net/index.php?/topic/439927-hexamita-bacterial-infection/ this will tell you the signs to watch out for and what to do about it if you see any of the signs.
 
hope that helps somewhat

 

[carmstrong]

I tested my tap water and got the following results:

Gh - 180
Kh - 80
Ph - 7.5

So my hardness is pretty high right out of the tap.

Thank for the info on the Hex disease and ways to soften my tank. I was looking into getting live plants but my lighting isn't the best and I didn't want to do the full investment yet.
The Angels in my fish tanks at the LFS I'm assuming all survive in the higher pH so maybe they just have to adjust? My friend has Angels but I don't know what her GH and Kh are, could find out lol

 

[Akasha72]

what is likely to happen is that they will 'survive' but may live shortened lives and become sickly. If you can take steps to soften their water a little you help them to live in the water they are designed for. 
It's all to do with how their systems work internally, there are other members who are better at explaining things than I am! I always try my best but I'm no good at explaining at the scientific stuff. 

 

[hobby5]

Just my 2 cents: If 36G is correct, your tank is too small for angels anyway. Especially, if its a long tank.

 

[carmstrong]

Thanks Hobby, yes I know the tank is a bit too small for them however they will be there for a short period until I get my 55gal

 

[Byron]

I'll comment on the issues Akasha and others mentioned in a moment.  First I would like to deal with an issue I see looming, and that is the two angelfish.  Unless they are a bonded pair, this may be real trouble down the road.  Angelfish live in small (by comparison to characins, corys, etc) shoals, and they establish a definite hierarchy within the group.  This group should never be less than five, though sometimes four works.  I appreciate you intend a 55g tank, and this would be fine for five, but how far off is this?  Depending upon the sex of the two angelfish, and their individuality, they may not accept other fish if they (the two) are together for a time.  Sometimes moving existing angelfish into a new environment and adding other angelfish at the same time can work, sometimes not.  If the 55g is not going to be ready within the next few weeks, there are a couple options: returning the angelfish and when the 55g is ready, acquire five together, or acquire three more now and keep them together.  They need to be the same size (age) when first combined.  They will be OK in the present tank for a few weeks, so which option depends upon the time line.
 
Now to the water, I agree that softer water would be preferable, but with commercially raised angels (which these are almost certain to be) I personally would not fuss over parameters.  However, I would have lots of real wood as Akasha mentioned; this has other benefits for angelfish besides some softening of the water.  Even with lots of wood, you will not see much of a softening, given the initial numbers, unless you dilute the water with "pure" water, but then you have water change issues.  Here I just wouldn't bother.  But lots of wood is still advisable, as this is their natural habitat, and they have vertical stripes to blend in with branches so with lots of this they will feel "at home."  And definitely floating plants, as Akasha also mentioned; overhead light is something these fish do not appreciate, so shading that with floating plants is a good idea.  Floating plants are relatively easy to maintain, compared to those planted in the substrate.
 
As for cardinals and angelfish, this is not normally good company.  Angelfish will if healthy attain a good six inches in length, and they can easily eat linear tetra.  Having said that, when the fish "grow up together," this sometimes does not occur.  I think Akasha has some experience with this.
 
Byron.

 

[carmstrong]

This is all great advice, thank you.
Unfortunately the 55gal won't come into play until May when I move. As for adding Angels in larger shoals, I just realized that after purchasing the two angels I have. Hopefully hey will be fine until I can move them into their permanent home.

Since I didn't the water change yesterday they seem to be more explorative, peaking in and out from behind the plants.

I guess I'll just wait and see

I will keep you all posted on their progress.