Carbon\charcoal

[freddybadger]

Carbon is full and ready to toss in 3 days usually and certainly by a week. If a beginner is fishlessly cycling a tank though and has started off with carbon it can sometimes be better to just leave it undisturbed as it will harbor some of the beneficial bacteria, even though it is not as optimal for the job as sponges or ceramics.

One of the basic lessons we teach beginners is that carbon (aka activated charcoal etc.) is a valuable media to have on their storage shelf. Its a "chemical filtration media" (as opposed to biological or mechanical although it overlaps) and is used optionally for special situations. The most common situations are to clear medications from the water, to help reduce yellow tannins when your bogwood is still leaching a bit and finally to help clear the occasional organic odor of unknown origin (or from a lost fish whose carcase can't be found.)

There can also be times when an aquarist just plans on showing off their tank a lot and might want to spend the money to try and get it even more cleaned up than usual and might choose to do a 3day run of a charcoal layer. Nothing wrong with that!

As far as it helping right in the beginning I really have no information or opinion. Most of us here have not used it in that way and been fine. Carbon use has a long history that has changed a bit over the years as biofilters and the nitrogen cycle have come to be better understood. The retail business in intertwined in this history of course, the retailers realizing at some point that they could benefit from steady movement of things like carbon and salt regardless of whether they were actually recommended or beneficial for aquarists to be using on a regular basis.

As far as Purigen goes, I think of it as an excellent tool for every advanced aquarists, often the planted tank hobbyists, but a very dangerous one for beginners. Its quite capable of removing all the ammonia that the bacteria need to develop during a cycle. Beginners often ask, "Hey, why bother with bacteria then?" and the answer is that resins like Purigen get suddenly "full" without the aquarist knowing and within a short period the fish can be dead.

~~waterdrop~~

Thank you very much for your advice

 

[waterdrop]

Thanks for giving me the opporunity. I was sitting here enjoying the sunset and the fresh CO2 little bubbles all over my green plants since I did a big water change this morning and now the tank is as clear as a bell. The harlequins are prancng about as happy as can be.

~~waterdrop~~

 

[bitteraspects]

so is it best just to remove it from your filter?

exactly.
there is absolutely no need for carbon in your filter as part of your daily filtration. however, as mentioned above, it can be used to remove chemical medications from your tank.

If as you say there is no need for carbon in your filter as part of your daily filtration, what are your thoughts on Purigen?

again. absolutely no need for it.
i dont use or condone using any type of chemical media. this includes ammonia chips, carbon, nitrate "absorbers", etc.
a properly set up and cycled bio-filter will take care of any ammonia and nitrites present. and a proper WC schedule will keep your nitrates under control.
all you need for a healthy filter is some bio-media (i prefer bio-max or substrat pro for HOB and canister set ups. and scrubbies for sumps) and some mechanical media.
the only other media i use/suggest are those for water polishing. even this i generally stick to poly-fill or quilt batting. it offers fine mechanical filtration which will get rid of the tiniest particles. maybe not all the way down to the micron level, but it will remove any visible particles. i cant justify spending money on an expensive micron filter or diatom filter, when you can get nearly the same filtration from a bag of $5 pillow stuffing.

 

[raptorrex]

i have the juwel rio 125 internal filter,what type of media should i replace the carbon with?

depends what you want out of the filter.

mechanical- another sponge
bio - any pro bio media (substrat pro, bio-max, matrix. etc. these are small enough for your internal, and have a high surface area)
water polishing - poly-fill/quilt batting

agree - this is an excellent post

my only thought though is that as a beginner, scotty may want to know *what* he should want out of the filter

--wd--

this taxed me too. ignoring the fact, many, internals are not suited to Multi type media.
i agree WD. walking before you run.

 

[AdAndrews]

Ive heard carbon has a high surface area? I only use it when the water is stained with the tannins of wood, its not part of my main filtration.

 

[raptorrex]

Ive heard carbon has a high surface area? I only use it when the water is stained with the tannins of wood, its not part of my main filtration.

carbon does indeed have a large surface area. but it also has chemical filtration abilities too.

 

[AdAndrews]

Ive heard carbon has a high surface area? I only use it when the water is stained with the tannins of wood, its not part of my main filtration.

carbon does indeed have a large surface area. but it also has chemical filtration abilities too.

oh, yea, ofcourse, but, after it is depleated as a chemical media, it will become a home for the bacteria in our systems, so, its all goooood

 

[bitteraspects]

the surface area is no higher than aquarium gravel or crushed coral. Furthermore, after a week or less the carbon not only looses any chemical filtration "benifits", but becomes petentially harmful to the system.
There is absolutely no need for carbon. If you want a media with a high surface area for biological filtration, invest in some bio-max.

 

[waterdrop]

Correct - carbon has a high surface area and bacteria will colonize it but one of the eventual disadvantages of it is that it crumbles and the smaller dust (with bacteria on it) keeps getting taken out of the tank with filter cleans and water changes. Its just not as good as ceramic surfaces (which don't crumble) or sponges (which take years to weaken.)

I disagree that carbon that has fully adsorbed various chemicals is going to dangerously leach them back into the tank. This was thoroughly discussed and debunked in our scientific section of the forum in my opinion.

~~waterdrop~~

 

[Dave Spencer]

As always, WD has given a nice, balanced answer, looking at carbon and Purigen from a far wider view of the hobby than most. Carbon and Purigen can play an important role in setting up planted tanks in particular. Planted tanks, due to their nature can be vulnerable to algae due to initially poor plant health. Plus, a lot of planted tanks use a considerable amount of wood, which give out discolorants which are unwanted by many planted enthusiasts.

Through the use of carbon and Purigen from the outset, algae triggers can be reduced to a minimum, and the water kept crystal clear without the need to endlessly boil and soak new wood.

Personally, I don`t really bother with carbon as it is rapidly depleted, but I can get a few months of use out of Purigen, and it is then easily regenerated.

However, I don`t agree with the whole Purigen, carbon, Zeolite “starve” the filter argument, though. And from quite a bit of experience, with Purigen in particular. They are not so efficient that they take up all the ammonia before nitrifying bacteria, especially if the media is placed as the last stage of filtration. Even in a heavily planted tank like mine, with rapid plant growth and usage of ammonia as well, the bacteria colony will develop.

People claiming that they see an ammonia spike after they remove any of the media mentioned above are failing to realise that they are removing a part of their nitrifying bacteria colony, which will have moved in on the readily available ammonia source.

These are the experiences of many planted tank enthusuiasts, and to say there is absolutely no need for carbon and Purigen is not looking at what is a bigger picture. Personally, I have never used carbon, but that is thanks to the presence of Purigen, which I would never start a planted tank without.

Dave.

 

[raptorrex]

I disagree that carbon that has fully adsorbed various chemicals is going to dangerously leach them back into the tank. This was thoroughly discussed and debunked in our scientific section of the forum in my opinion.

~~waterdrop~~

yet again i totally agree. though this is still unpopular, amongst some members. leaching is a, possibility, but little more. though it, to me, has a larger surface area than sponge.
i go back to my original point on activated carbon. the reasons for using it have, largely, gone. the impetus to continue using it, come from LFS and manufacturers, because it make money. in the same way they encourage you to change out sponge media, on a regular basis. or use Aquarium salt.
even so, i always have some about. i have never had to medicate my tanks, but it does a wonderful job of polishing water, prior to taking photos.

 

[waterdrop]

Thanks Dave, you took my comments and filled things out with useful detail for people to learn from. Its one thing to be able to create beautiful planted tanks but its quite another to be willing to help people learn from your experiences and to have the patience to explain things with an open mind!

I've been on a bit of a two-year high over my discovery of the magic of the biofilter concept that was right there in my aquariums as a child and yet that I never was taught to understand properly during those years. I mean, the technology itself is fun to learn about but its kind of historically amazing too when a thing of such simple construction (box pulling water past media) was doing great stuff for people even back before very many of them really understood it. I'd like to think that excuses me a little for my over-emphasis of the bacterial contribution to tank ecology, that and the obvious fact that I spend most of my hobby time currently passing it on to beginners, for whom its a good basic concept to get down properly.

But its clear if one reads that there's a lot more out there to be known and more of both known and possibly new techniques to be used. Planted tanks are clearly one of the driving forces that make us look at more factors in the tank. Walstad's looks at the extent to which bacteria and plants are in competition for the same ammonia was an idea that gave me pause. The idea that DOC and all sorts of more and more complicated organic molecules have the chance to build into more and more complicated collections within the tank as the months go by also is food for thought. There are potentially both positives and negatives to these newcomer molecules and the various cycles they may be involved in.

Oh well, sorry guys, it probably shows just how far off topic a conversation can get that carbon is probably not even mentioned once in this post, lol.

~~waterdrop~~