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Canisters or sump??
- Thread starter AquaBarb
- Start date
Perhaps you should explain what you meant to convey by saying this.
Last edited:
"Take it or leave it?" How you do things or what you suggest to others is your business. Did I imply anything to the contrary?
eatyourpeas
Fish Herder
If I had a large enough tank I'd probably go sump. I find them much more interesting, especially since I see filtration as an extension of the tank that can be observed in its own right. As it is, I over-filter my tanks by using canisters in most, even the 3 gal. one. All biomedia, and see through.
I have something that may interest you as a filtration aficionado, eatyourpeas. I added the next to last major upgrade tonight for my tank. It's a sine wave pump. The idea is to decrease noise, improve circulation across the entire tank, keep the surface broken and sweep more bottom detritus into my filters between gravel cleanings. Even with a primlimary setup it works great.
It fires off a focused\pulsed current near the surface which travels the width of the tank (6ft) and circles downwards. It then travels back along the bottom to the opposite end of the tank where it's sucked upwards. Rinse and repeat. Interesting piece of kit!
It fires off a focused\pulsed current near the surface which travels the width of the tank (6ft) and circles downwards. It then travels back along the bottom to the opposite end of the tank where it's sucked upwards. Rinse and repeat. Interesting piece of kit!
Advanced Aquarist
Fish Fanatic
Let's raise the bar shall we?
Firstly, don't bother watching videos like this. I've only seen bits of it because, clearly, beginners are beginners. Those who have been long enough in the hobby just get tired of this rubbish:
Most of the comments for this video are "polite" or PC - and quite frankly that's lame. I'm not here to stir trouble, but I am here to tell you all what you need to know.
So, firstly, I have:
2 x Eheim 2213
1 x Eheim 2215
1 x Eheim 2217, I had another one but there was a manufacturing fault on the pump head, the motor coil was slightly out of alignment, this lead to grinding the impeller through hole to one side, went through two impellers before I realised this, had to throw away the pump head which was a shame, so this left me with a spare 2217 canister.
1 x Eheim professional, can't be bother to remember the model number, it's in storage and I have not used it for a long time.
1 x Eheim 2260 with 1060, 1260 and 1262 universal pump to choose to put on it.
An Eheim wet/dry canister, which I gave away to someone, not really part of this discussion.
These were obtained over a 34+ year period. I stuck with the classic canisters because of their simple design. I've never mistreated my filters so I hardly have any issues with them.
So clearly I have options. Care to guess how many of them are being in use now?
None. Not one.
But maybe I will in the foreseeable future given the results of some discussion I'm having with planted tank aquarist who I defer to when it comes to discussions about the water chemistry and aquatic plant biology.
If I need to get a canister filter now I would go for an ADA superjet filter. They are very high priced, but they're not expensive when you consider what you get. They only work for freshwater though, and are not recommended for rooms that are very cold since metal is not a good insulator. They are built to last, and last they will.
"Canister or sump" is a pointless question. To prove it we'll go over what the issues are.
1) Sumps need to be feed via overflow barriers or syphon boxes. This entails added complications not seen on the canister. Canister filters are literally plug and play.
2) Because of the need for an overflow barrier or syphon box this means that the water is being "fed" into the sump. The inlet of the return pump of the sump DOES NOT dictate the suction force of the water. That is dictated by the water level, the so called "water level difference" on the overflow grate(s). (This is not quite correct since water flow rate of the pump dictates the water level of the tank, but let's overlook this for sake of argument). You can observe this yourself by looking at water overflowing on any barrier. The higher the level the more water overflowing. So sumps don't suck water, they just create a condition in the main aquarium that "compels" water to overflow on a barrier to feed them - something I call "soft forcing" compared to "hard forcing" in the case of a canister filter. Here you can try it out yourself: get any working canister filter, remove the strainer on the inlet, and block the hole with your thumb, and you will feel the strength of the canister filter's pump on it. On an Eheim 2217 it's quite a jolt! This is not to say that overflow barriers don't have this level of force, it's just that it's more spread over a large length/area than a canister filter's inlet hole.
3) Because of the previous point the overflow barrier or syphon box(es) dictate the water level in tank, dependent on the flow rate of the returned water from the sump. Canisters do not have this problem. They don't care what the water level of the tank is as long as the inlet is completely immersed and the return can be either in the water or out of it. Canister filters are what we refer to as a "closed loop" system. Sumps are not.
4) This now implies that, given constant flow rate on the return pump, evaporation on the system will not show itself in the main tank, instead it will show itself in the sump. Consequentially, if you were to add water to the main tank on a sump system the water level will rise in the sump and NOT the main tank. This is the basis of water top off systems, they monitor water level in the sump.
5) Because flow rate to the sump is dictated by the water level difference on the overflow barriers of the weir or the syphon box, this means that the sump must provide the water to create this water level difference. Hence more water level difference means more flow, but the relationship is not linear. Hence the bigger the sump the more flow that can be accommodated. Small sumps can only support low flow because they don't have enough capacity to create a big water level difference in the main tank. You can sort of get a way around this by increasing the barrier length - or adding more syphon boxes. In the case of barrier length the relationship to flow is linear: given the same water level difference created, twice the barrier length means twice the feed flow rate.
Now, these are just the preliminary technicalities of implementing a sump, something that nearly all forums and stuff on the internet hardly ever touch on. (I was about to give this away on another forum but was banned before doing so, but in hindsight I would never wanted to post it anyway given the owner of the site.) And we haven't even got to the discussion regarding the syphon flow issues, I'll leave that to the planted tank journal. Nearly all commercially available aquariums with sumps have internal barriers (weirs) and implement the durso/bean animal overflow arrangements, sort of fit and forget but not quite. You still need some responsibility on part of the user but not to the level of the points I raised. The manufacturers also played safe by having very long barriers to handle a wide flow range.
So if anyone asks "Canister or Sump", what you really should be asking is how much do you know about either, and what are you willing to do? What is it worth to you?
The bottom line is that sumps "expose" the water. They are open systems, not closed loop systems. In a sump you can add extra water capacity, heaters, reactors, probes, refugiums etc. . In a closed loop system you can sort of do those things as long as they are "closed" themselves: inline heaters, inline reactors, inline probes, refugiums you can have an overhead tank that gravity drains to the main tank, etc . . - but canisters were never designed for that in the first place, these were makeshift solutions to get over the canister filter's shortcomings.
If you're running a small freshwater tank, less than 100 litres say, probably not worth it.
Sumps for larger systems, properly designed, are way, way more convenient and easier to live with in the long run than canister filters - you just got to know what you are doing. I should know, I'm still running sumps 31 years on!!! Canister filters are limited. They are just closed loop containers. If your requirements are that a basic biological media in a closed container is sufficient for your needs, and you can tolerate periodic filter clean outs, then use a canister and be done with it. If, however, you require more, them sumps are the way to go.
Firstly, don't bother watching videos like this. I've only seen bits of it because, clearly, beginners are beginners. Those who have been long enough in the hobby just get tired of this rubbish:
Most of the comments for this video are "polite" or PC - and quite frankly that's lame. I'm not here to stir trouble, but I am here to tell you all what you need to know.
So, firstly, I have:
2 x Eheim 2213
1 x Eheim 2215
1 x Eheim 2217, I had another one but there was a manufacturing fault on the pump head, the motor coil was slightly out of alignment, this lead to grinding the impeller through hole to one side, went through two impellers before I realised this, had to throw away the pump head which was a shame, so this left me with a spare 2217 canister.
1 x Eheim professional, can't be bother to remember the model number, it's in storage and I have not used it for a long time.
1 x Eheim 2260 with 1060, 1260 and 1262 universal pump to choose to put on it.
An Eheim wet/dry canister, which I gave away to someone, not really part of this discussion.
These were obtained over a 34+ year period. I stuck with the classic canisters because of their simple design. I've never mistreated my filters so I hardly have any issues with them.
So clearly I have options. Care to guess how many of them are being in use now?
None. Not one.
But maybe I will in the foreseeable future given the results of some discussion I'm having with planted tank aquarist who I defer to when it comes to discussions about the water chemistry and aquatic plant biology.
If I need to get a canister filter now I would go for an ADA superjet filter. They are very high priced, but they're not expensive when you consider what you get. They only work for freshwater though, and are not recommended for rooms that are very cold since metal is not a good insulator. They are built to last, and last they will.
"Canister or sump" is a pointless question. To prove it we'll go over what the issues are.
1) Sumps need to be feed via overflow barriers or syphon boxes. This entails added complications not seen on the canister. Canister filters are literally plug and play.
2) Because of the need for an overflow barrier or syphon box this means that the water is being "fed" into the sump. The inlet of the return pump of the sump DOES NOT dictate the suction force of the water. That is dictated by the water level, the so called "water level difference" on the overflow grate(s). (This is not quite correct since water flow rate of the pump dictates the water level of the tank, but let's overlook this for sake of argument). You can observe this yourself by looking at water overflowing on any barrier. The higher the level the more water overflowing. So sumps don't suck water, they just create a condition in the main aquarium that "compels" water to overflow on a barrier to feed them - something I call "soft forcing" compared to "hard forcing" in the case of a canister filter. Here you can try it out yourself: get any working canister filter, remove the strainer on the inlet, and block the hole with your thumb, and you will feel the strength of the canister filter's pump on it. On an Eheim 2217 it's quite a jolt! This is not to say that overflow barriers don't have this level of force, it's just that it's more spread over a large length/area than a canister filter's inlet hole.
3) Because of the previous point the overflow barrier or syphon box(es) dictate the water level in tank, dependent on the flow rate of the returned water from the sump. Canisters do not have this problem. They don't care what the water level of the tank is as long as the inlet is completely immersed and the return can be either in the water or out of it. Canister filters are what we refer to as a "closed loop" system. Sumps are not.
4) This now implies that, given constant flow rate on the return pump, evaporation on the system will not show itself in the main tank, instead it will show itself in the sump. Consequentially, if you were to add water to the main tank on a sump system the water level will rise in the sump and NOT the main tank. This is the basis of water top off systems, they monitor water level in the sump.
5) Because flow rate to the sump is dictated by the water level difference on the overflow barriers of the weir or the syphon box, this means that the sump must provide the water to create this water level difference. Hence more water level difference means more flow, but the relationship is not linear. Hence the bigger the sump the more flow that can be accommodated. Small sumps can only support low flow because they don't have enough capacity to create a big water level difference in the main tank. You can sort of get a way around this by increasing the barrier length - or adding more syphon boxes. In the case of barrier length the relationship to flow is linear: given the same water level difference created, twice the barrier length means twice the feed flow rate.
Now, these are just the preliminary technicalities of implementing a sump, something that nearly all forums and stuff on the internet hardly ever touch on. (I was about to give this away on another forum but was banned before doing so, but in hindsight I would never wanted to post it anyway given the owner of the site.) And we haven't even got to the discussion regarding the syphon flow issues, I'll leave that to the planted tank journal. Nearly all commercially available aquariums with sumps have internal barriers (weirs) and implement the durso/bean animal overflow arrangements, sort of fit and forget but not quite. You still need some responsibility on part of the user but not to the level of the points I raised. The manufacturers also played safe by having very long barriers to handle a wide flow range.
So if anyone asks "Canister or Sump", what you really should be asking is how much do you know about either, and what are you willing to do? What is it worth to you?
The bottom line is that sumps "expose" the water. They are open systems, not closed loop systems. In a sump you can add extra water capacity, heaters, reactors, probes, refugiums etc. . In a closed loop system you can sort of do those things as long as they are "closed" themselves: inline heaters, inline reactors, inline probes, refugiums you can have an overhead tank that gravity drains to the main tank, etc . . - but canisters were never designed for that in the first place, these were makeshift solutions to get over the canister filter's shortcomings.
If you're running a small freshwater tank, less than 100 litres say, probably not worth it.
Sumps for larger systems, properly designed, are way, way more convenient and easier to live with in the long run than canister filters - you just got to know what you are doing. I should know, I'm still running sumps 31 years on!!! Canister filters are limited. They are just closed loop containers. If your requirements are that a basic biological media in a closed container is sufficient for your needs, and you can tolerate periodic filter clean outs, then use a canister and be done with it. If, however, you require more, them sumps are the way to go.
Thanks for your input, highly educational, IMO.
eatyourpeas
Fish Herder
OnlyGenusCaps
Fish Crazy
I concur that sumps are a more flexible platform. Indeed, I like that I can experiment with space.
However, the real reason I wanted to comment was to agree that the video you linked was exceedingly annoying!
However, the real reason I wanted to comment was to agree that the video you linked was exceedingly annoying!
eatyourpeas
Fish Herder
Thanks for the warning, you two! I will not dare watch someone wearing bubblegum pink shorts, and now I know I won't have to bother.
And thanks to the 3 of you, nowThanks for the warning, you two! I will not dare watch someone wearing bubblegum pink shorts, and now I know I won't have to bother.
Gotta love fluid dynamics!
Indeed! It inspires a new appreciation for large bodies of water and the flow of rivers. I wish that I had been aware of this implementation sooner.
OnlyGenusCaps
Fish Crazy
What re you saying?! You wouldn't want to watch a video with me in my Joey Buttafuoco pants?!I will not dare watch someone wearing bubblegum pink shorts, and now I know I won't have to bother.
Style.
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