Canister Filter

[bitteraspects]

The nitrogen cycle will of course take place no matter what turn over rate is present.

However, there is always going to be a limit at which the the flow rate is going to exceed an efficiency level.

you are aware that these two statements directly contradict each other, right?

let me try this again. even at (for example) 3000gph, bacteria is still fully capable of completing the nitrification of ammonia.
therefor, in matts tank (again, for example), at 20x turnover youre looking at 2000lph(530gph) which is still well under the above mentioned 3000gph.

so, at 20x turnover, matts 100liter tank is more than capable of efficiently filtering his tank from a biological standpoint.

also, as previously mentioned, a higher flow rate can aid the mechanical filtration process by suspending detritus and other solids in the water column long enough for them to be picked up by the overflow.

so, at 20x turnover, matts 100liter tank is more than capable of efficiently filtering his tank from a mechanical standpoint. in fact, more so than with a lower flow rate.

so lets see. if it provides efficient biological filtration, and superior mechanical filtration, what exactly is "beyond the efficiency of the filter" and "loosing the benefits of a high turn over rate" as you so eloquently put it?

your scenario of the turbo has absolutely nothing to do with this situation, and your scenario about a planted tank is also something completely different.

maybe with a high turnover you lose "nutrient delivery" to the plants (and even this im not sure i believe), but if your filter is holding all the beneficial bacteria, then it would have absolutely no effect on your fish. the beneficial bacteria in the bio media will maintain your water parameters and sustain the life of your fish.
planted tanks are a completely different scenario, and has absolutely nothing to do with the topic at hand.

i would highly suggest checking your facts before posting something like you did. it will help you in the end.

 

[bitteraspects]

I used 22mm 3/4inch overflow pipe...

ok.

with a 3/4" overflow, you are getting a max gravitational vertical flow of 337.5/gph (1277.58/lph)
keep in mind, this is if your overflow was built and sealed properly, and all excess air is removed from the pipe via the check valve.

so, essentially, as long as your return pump it rated at 337.5/gph (1277.58/lph) or less after factoring in pump head, your system will run smoothly. the closer you can get to this number, the better. if your pump is too small (like, way too small) you run the risk of having more air enter the pipe, and that can lead to cavitation.
10o0-1200lph will be fine. you can probably get away with something smaller than 1000lph if you had to. just make sure your check valve is in place and functioning properly.

What equation did you use to figure out the gravitational vertical flow?

Thanks!

-FHM

got the chart from a guy on another board a couple of tears back. basically it uses the cross section of the pipe, minimum vertical length, frictional head loss, ect.

 

[fatheadminnow]

The nitrogen cycle will of course take place no matter what turn over rate is present.

However, there is always going to be a limit at which the the flow rate is going to exceed an efficiency level.

you are aware that these two statements directly contradict each other, right?

No they do not. The first part I said that the "The nitrogen cycle will take place, no matter what flow rate is present," means exactly that. Whereas the second part states in other words (but still means the same thing) "that there is going to be a limit to the this (the nitrogen cycle), which would be determined by the flow rate, being too low or too high." There was nothing that I said about the second part that does not mean that the nitrogen cycle is going to completely stop. If I said that then yes, your observation would be true, however it is incorrect. If the limit is exceeded, the the process at which the bacteria process ammonia and/or nitrite will no longer go up, but instead will either stay the same or decrease. With that said, these two statements are not contradicting at all.

your scenario of the turbo has absolutely nothing to do with this situation.

Yes it does! Even though the turbo has nothing to do with fish, it still demonstrates that there is a limit at which anything past that limit is going to not have any more positive effects on the situation.

The Autotrophic bacteria are living things. With that said these living things can only consume their food (ammonia and nitrite) at a given rate "X". Where X is the max they can process food.

If we take DX/DT, where X is a function of time, we will see that these bacteria process ammonia in given amount of time. (Because they are living things.) A human can only eat a sandwich so fast.

If the flow rate is high enough to the point where these bacteria can no longer obtain their food efficiently enough to obtain the smallest amount of time to process their food, then that would mean that the flow rate has exceeded the limit at which these bacteria can process food efficiently.

Anyways, what equation did you use to obtain the gravitational flow rates?

-FHM

 

[bitteraspects]

The nitrogen cycle will of course take place no matter what turn over rate is present.

However, there is always going to be a limit at which the the flow rate is going to exceed an efficiency level.

you are aware that these two statements directly contradict each other, right?

No they do not. The first part I said that the "The nitrogen cycle will take place, no matter what flow rate is present," means exactly that. Whereas the second part states in other words (but still means the same thing) "that there is going to be a limit to the this (the nitrogen cycle), which would be determined by the flow rate, being too low or too high." There was nothing that I said about the second part that does not mean that the nitrogen cycle is going to completely stop. If I said that then yes, your observation would be true, however it is incorrect. If the limit is exceeded, the the process at which the bacteria process ammonia and/or nitrite will no longer go up, but instead will either stay the same or decrease. With that said, these two statements are not contradicting at all.

your scenario of the turbo has absolutely nothing to do with this situation.

Yes it does! Even though the turbo has nothing to do with fish, it still demonstrates that there is a limit at which anything past that limit is going to not have any more positive effects on the situation.

The Autotrophic bacteria are living things. With that said these living things can only consume their food (ammonia and nitrite) at a given rate "X". Where X is the max they can process food.

If we take DX/DT, where X is a function of time, we will see that these bacteria process ammonia in given amount of time. (Because they are living things.) A human can only eat a sandwich so fast.

If the flow rate is high enough to the point where these bacteria can no longer obtain their food efficiently enough to obtain the smallest amount of time to process their food, then that would mean that the flow rate has exceeded the limit at which these bacteria can process food efficiently.

Anyways, what equation did you use to obtain the gravitational flow rates?

-FHM

again, get your facts together.

commercial set ups use flow rates in the THOUSANDS, and ammonia is efficiently proceed and water parameters are maintained. so 500gph will have absolutely no adverse effects.
it all goes back to my initial post.

"while there may be a point where the waterflow is too fast for bacteria to effectively process ammonia, there is nothing to show that we are reaching anywhere near those flow rates in our home or commercial set ups"

do some research

you are proving absolutely nothing by continuing to post the same contradictory statements over and over.

The nitrogen cycle will of course take place no matter what turn over rate is present.

the above statement says that regardless of the flow rate, the nitrogen cycle will take place. therefore at 1000000gph, bacteria will still efficiently convert ammonia into nitrogen

then you go on to claim "that there is going to be a limit to the this (the nitrogen cycle), which would be determined by the flow rate, being too low or too high."

which is essentially what i just said, except that i also stated clearly that even at 3000GPH, the flow rate is not "too high" for this process to take place.

i know its hard being wrong, but the sooner you accept it, the sooner you can get over it

 

[fatheadminnow]

What I am saying is 100% correct!

You keep saying that 100000000000000000000000000000000GPH will still work, and yes that is true because you have not taken into account the size of tank that this filter is running on.

Trust me, I am correct, even other experienced members on here have agreed, and it is pinned articles in this forum.

I am sorry to get into an argument, but you are wrong. Even if we do not know what the limit is mathematically, yet, that does not mean one does not exist. It would defy science if one did not exist. It is like putting a numerical value on infinity, it just can't be done. Or dividing zero by infinity.

So yeah, a 1000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000GPH filter would be just fine, depending on the size tank it is running on.

We can even take this a little further, by saying that these bacteria can adjust by increasing or decreasing their colonization within the filter, but then we can even say that this also takes time. Where at some point the flow rate, along with the ammonia produced (which is not constant), could not adjust to this efficiently.

I am sorry, I have my facts straight and I can prove this mathematically if given some time, DX/DT, where X is a function of time. I can find an equation, derive that,, (related rates) I could find a mathematical answer.

-FHM

 

[bitteraspects]

its really sad how hard it is for you to realize youre wrong. especially when its been explained over and over again.
but either way, you opinion does not effect the facts, or how well i understand them.
maybe one day you might figure it out, but until then, i guess you can just be happy with your ignorance.
a quick trip to your local aquarium or fish farm will teach you a thing or two about flow rate vs. nitrification. id suggest planning a trip. for yourself.

its just too bad you dont get it. you seemed like such a potentially bright guy.

oh well.

anyways, back to the topic at hand.

matt. youre looking at around 300gph on your return pump, give or take as long as your overflow is operating correctly.

lmk if you have any more questions

 

[fatheadminnow]

Well, I do not live in an area where I can just visit a fish farm anytime I want. But, if you could please enlighten me.

-FHM

 

[fatheadminnow]

Could you possible write the equation down on here so I could use it sometime in the future when I make one of those DIY overflows?

Sorry to get in an argument with you but even if I am right, which I may be because to me it makes no sense that there would not be a limit, but what ever, I think it is only a matter of time until there would be a numerical value put to what I am saying. As of that, I am no longer going to discuss this topic any further. I have sent some emails out to some very smart people who will look into the topic even further, so until then I am not going to discuss this any further.

Thanks!

-FHM

 

[mini_matt]

guys guys guys ok enough sqabling! lol 300gph so 1500lph or no u will be talking in american gallons whats that like 3.5litres to a gallon? around 1050lph? so if I get 1200lph thats gonna be my best bet right, seems a bit high to me but then I am using a tetra ex600 on my 50l lol

cheers guys

 

[bitteraspects]

the closer to 1200LPH, the better. i dont know what kind of pumps you have availible to you, so anything that runs in the 1000-1200LPH range will be fine

 

[mini_matt]

cheers buddy, will be looking on ebay to get a couple pumps, makin sure they have an ok head hight, gotta finish making my stand first, just need to cut and attatch legs, not sure if I need centre legs or not, that something you know about? lol

 

[mini_matt]

oh yeah and what did you paint your pipe with? just don't wanna poison my fish

 

[bitteraspects]

Yeah I've built a few stands here and there. Lol.
it really depends on the materials you're using to build your stand. I never use anything smaller than 2x4 to build a stand (mostly because 2x4 are cheap and easy to get), and for a tank as small as yours, you definitely won't need middle legs with 2x4. if you're using smaller lumber, as long as you have sturdy cross bracing on the back and one side, you won't need middle legs.
The one thing you want to be sure of is that the weight of the tank is sitting directly on the vertical strength of the 4 legs, rather than having the legs on the sides screwed/nailed on to the base. The sheer can cause damage down the road. Support the tank with the Wood, not the nails/screws.

As far as paint goes. I paint all my tanks (backgrounds/bottoms/sides) and plumbing (inside and out) with Krylon Fusion. flat black of course.
For any plumbing that will be submerged, you will want to wipe the pipes down with acetone or something before painting. This will help prevent the paint from bubbling or chipping down the line.
As long as you let the plumbing adhesive and paint properly cure for at least 24 hours (I usually wait 48 out of habbit) it will be perfectly safe in your tank.

 

[bitteraspects]

Oh, and you will only need one pump. Not sure if I directly answered your question on that earlier. Running 2 smaller pumps is not going to accomplish anything except raising your electric bill and the noise level in your sump.

 

[mini_matt]

awesome yeah using 2x4 which actually turned out to be about 1 1/2 x 3 1/2 for some reason but is still solid as! not sure on placement of the legs, the tank going on it is a floating base tank and the edges of the glass line up with the middle of the 2x4 just unsure of how I should be doing the legs, will ply board down the sides to give more strength, but red or blue for leg placement on my pic? legs are only going to be a foot long and will have one of those big metal brakets used for shelves supporting it along with the ply down the sides think this will be strong enough? i'm hoping to just over kill so I know its stong