S
smb
Guest
:smb: We need a na na nanana smilie around here too.
yea, I just say that so I don't cause any arguments and I can just post that I like biowheels and move on.
Canister Filter!
- Thread starter 1clicc
- Start date
:smb: We need a na na nanana smilie around here too.
yea, I just say that so I don't cause any arguments and I can just post that I like biowheels and move on.
I have never used a biowheel - never even seen one. From the pictures and bumph I've looked at, it would seem these things use up space over the tank or are side hung contraptions. I have no desire for this. If there are other options - I am unaware of them.
I use Eheim canisters - effortless.
Regardless of the filter...
>>>
If you've got a heavy bioload, the heavy feeding that goes with it and all the accumulating waste from decaying plants,
<<<
... I think those are 2 problems that need to be solved. If you're overstocked - then you shouldn't be, if your plants are dying - then you're doing something wrong for them.
I am a great believer in rectifying the source of problems rather than sticking plasters over the symptoms.
I use Eheim canisters - effortless.
Regardless of the filter...
>>>
If you've got a heavy bioload, the heavy feeding that goes with it and all the accumulating waste from decaying plants,
<<<
... I think those are 2 problems that need to be solved. If you're overstocked - then you shouldn't be, if your plants are dying - then you're doing something wrong for them.
I am a great believer in rectifying the source of problems rather than sticking plasters over the symptoms.
Lateral,
I understand what you are saying but the question is, why bother with a filter? why not just build a river right in your front room!
Sorry to be a little sarcastic
but what is a filters main job? To make up for the fact that a tank is a closed system and is inherently unhealthy to begin wth. A filter is a measure you take to prevent waste building up to toxic levels and unless you want to keep brine shrimp and not fish your going to need one. What I was suggesting was, why not take it to its logical conclusion ie. a more efficient filter = less water changes.
Saying that an efficient filter is a sticky plaster solution is ignoring the fact that all filters are in fact a sticky plaster solution to the problems associated with a closed system, a more efficient one is a better sticky plaster solution. This is especially true for big messy cichlids that arent built for living in a few inches of water.
The fact that these fish are messy eaters with a taste for meaty foods is unavoidable.
As for the plants, almost all the plants I have were most likely raised in marsh, the leaves that had been growing in open air will allways die off to make way for leaves more suited to underwater respiration, keeping them pruned down is a tricky task in a well planted tank, so I think having the provision there for when things have to wait for your attention is the right choice!
Ken
I understand what you are saying but the question is, why bother with a filter? why not just build a river right in your front room!
Sorry to be a little sarcastic
but what is a filters main job? To make up for the fact that a tank is a closed system and is inherently unhealthy to begin wth. A filter is a measure you take to prevent waste building up to toxic levels and unless you want to keep brine shrimp and not fish your going to need one. What I was suggesting was, why not take it to its logical conclusion ie. a more efficient filter = less water changes.Saying that an efficient filter is a sticky plaster solution is ignoring the fact that all filters are in fact a sticky plaster solution to the problems associated with a closed system, a more efficient one is a better sticky plaster solution. This is especially true for big messy cichlids that arent built for living in a few inches of water.
The fact that these fish are messy eaters with a taste for meaty foods is unavoidable.
As for the plants, almost all the plants I have were most likely raised in marsh, the leaves that had been growing in open air will allways die off to make way for leaves more suited to underwater respiration, keeping them pruned down is a tricky task in a well planted tank, so I think having the provision there for when things have to wait for your attention is the right choice!
Ken
I was not suggesting that a filter is a sticking plaster over the fact that we are dealing with a closed system - that is obvious. I did, after all, point out the fact that I use and advocate Eheim canisters. What I was suggesting is that sticking big filters - of any type - to cover up bad aquarium keeping practice is bad.
>>> a more efficient filter = less water changes
I do not believe that to be the case. A more efficient filter might convert Ammonia -> nitrite -> nitrate faster, but unless you are jumping through some serious hoops - you end up with the same amount of nitrate. Which requires changing out - or serious hoops.
Incidently - if you wish to raise brine shrimp to any size, you will fail without biological filtration for the same reasons you quote.
>>> a more efficient filter = less water changes
I do not believe that to be the case. A more efficient filter might convert Ammonia -> nitrite -> nitrate faster, but unless you are jumping through some serious hoops - you end up with the same amount of nitrate. Which requires changing out - or serious hoops.
Incidently - if you wish to raise brine shrimp to any size, you will fail without biological filtration for the same reasons you quote.
S
smb
Guest
I use big filters AND practice probably the best husbandry practices around. The fact that I have a bigger and better filter isn't so I can be lax in my wc's and to have "a fix" because of it but to be more efficient and take better care of my fish. IMO, that is better than just adequate filtration and good husbandry skills.
With cichlids this is a must. I think it's a good practice with all fish also.
Hi Lateral,
We both agree that routine maintenance is an absolute neccesity but I was referring to big messy cichlids that consume alot and excrete alot. While nitrate will build up in a tank with no water changes the point I was making is this:
Without a filter, ammonia builds up quickly, unless you do some serious water changing your fish will die.
With a filter ammonia levels are kept minimum, large daily water changes are not needed.
The logical conclusion would then be that a more efficient filter can handle the large amount of toxins produced daily by big messy fish quicker while a less efficient filter may leave a trace of ammonia in the water.
This is what I meant by 'more efficient filter = less water changes'
'less' is the important word relative to the above, I didnt mean no water changes! The amount of water changes the concientious fishkeeper makes is adequate to keep nitrate at safe levels.
As for the brine shrimp, point taken, my shrimp barely get to stretch their legs before they get munched!
I use an Eheim myself, you cant even buy bio-wheels here but I think if I could get one, I would.
Ken
We both agree that routine maintenance is an absolute neccesity but I was referring to big messy cichlids that consume alot and excrete alot. While nitrate will build up in a tank with no water changes the point I was making is this:
Without a filter, ammonia builds up quickly, unless you do some serious water changing your fish will die.
With a filter ammonia levels are kept minimum, large daily water changes are not needed.
The logical conclusion would then be that a more efficient filter can handle the large amount of toxins produced daily by big messy fish quicker while a less efficient filter may leave a trace of ammonia in the water.
This is what I meant by 'more efficient filter = less water changes'
'less' is the important word relative to the above, I didnt mean no water changes! The amount of water changes the concientious fishkeeper makes is adequate to keep nitrate at safe levels.
As for the brine shrimp, point taken, my shrimp barely get to stretch their legs before they get munched!
I use an Eheim myself, you cant even buy bio-wheels here but I think if I could get one, I would.
Ken
thecichlidaddict
Fish Herder
The amount of water changes you need directly reflects the amount of filtration you need. The more filtration you need, the more often you need to do water changes. If you have enough fish, or types of fish, that require a lot of filtration, then nitrates will build up that much more quickly and water changes will need to be done that much sooner. Plus, as nitrites are turned into nitrates hydrogen ions are released, and this process steadily brings the PH down, therefor the the more nitrites that are converted, the faster the PH drops, and the more important it becomes to do water changes to keep things level.
On the other hand, you can add all the filtration you want to your existing setup and it will not change how often or much you should do your water changes at all, because the bio-filter will still be exactly the same size, only it will be spread amongst a bunch of filters instead of just one.
In my opinion nothing, not filtration, not anything, is more important to a fishes well being then water changes, and if I could afford it I would run my aquariums on a continuous fresh water flow and have no filter at all.
On the other hand, you can add all the filtration you want to your existing setup and it will not change how often or much you should do your water changes at all, because the bio-filter will still be exactly the same size, only it will be spread amongst a bunch of filters instead of just one.
You only, only have biological filtration problems if toxins are testing positive. If you have no trace of ammonia or nitrates in your tank then you do not need any more biological filtration. period.
In my opinion nothing, not filtration, not anything, is more important to a fishes well being then water changes, and if I could afford it I would run my aquariums on a continuous fresh water flow and have no filter at all.
I think we are all basically saying the same thing here.
This should not be a suprise.
This should not be a suprise.
S
smb
Guest
LOL LL. I think you're right.Lateral Line said:
Yea, I don't think you'll get any disagreements with that. :smb:
Yes we are all saying the same thing, a closed system isnt ideal and needs intervention, by filtration AND water changes.
This is exactly my point, you need as much filtration to cater for the bio-load you have, therefore a very heavy bio-load needs heavy-weight biological filtration. Hence using the bio-wheel which does this efficiently and is helped by the fact that the bacteria have access to unlimited oxygen, the oiginal topic!
Im not saying canisters cant do the job, just that bio-wheels have an advantage in taking the bacteria's oxygen requirements out of the equation.
Ken
This is exactly my point, you need as much filtration to cater for the bio-load you have, therefore a very heavy bio-load needs heavy-weight biological filtration. Hence using the bio-wheel which does this efficiently and is helped by the fact that the bacteria have access to unlimited oxygen, the oiginal topic!
Im not saying canisters cant do the job, just that bio-wheels have an advantage in taking the bacteria's oxygen requirements out of the equation.
Which is the same idea as I pointed out earlier, simulate nature.
Ken
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