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Can we talk about GH ???

Magnum Man

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so I've done a little reading on the subject... was in fish heavily 15 years or so ago... seem to remember worrying about PH, but don't think GH ever came up... I have some test strips coming...

these...

unless there is a much better option...

I assume the home water softener, lowers some of the GH... or??? of course I can adjust the PH, with drift wood & Limestone, ( the methods I use currently )... but I've not been involved in any discussion on adjusting the actual GH on any of my aquariums...

we live on a farm in southern MN... with well water... pretty high iron content from the well... we have a softener in the house, that is supposed to be removing a bunch of the iron, or all the plumbing fixtures would be orange... I use this soft water straight to my aquariums, in fact there is specific plumbing going to the aquariums, done when I built them in 15 years ago... no chlorine to worry about

anyone want to help enlighten me???
 
Last edited:
so I've done a little reading on the subject... was in fish heavily 15 years or so ago... seem to remember worrying about PH, but don't think GH ever came up... I have some test strips coming...

these...

unless there is a much better option...

I assume the home water softener, lowers some of the GH... or??? of course I can adjust the PH, with drift wood & Limestone, ( the methods I use currently )... but I've not been involved in any discussion on adjusting the actual GH on any of my aquariums...

we live on a farm in southern MN... with well water... pretty high iron content from the well... we have a softener in the house, that is supposed to be removing a bunch of the iron, or all the plumbing fixtures would be orange... I use this soft water straight to my aquariums, in fact there is specific plumbing going to the aquariums, done when I built them in 15 years ago... no chlorine to worry about

anyone want to help enlighten me???
When GH is driven by calcium and magnesium you need a fish species whose kidneys can handle the cation load. Otherwise lifespan is reduced. I am not certain about heavy metals like iron but I’m sure someone else will inform you.
 
seems like if anyone is having problems, the people trying to help are asking... the GH is the 1st question... if the GH is "general hardness", & it is a combination of all of the "hardness" components... I would think those individual hardness's that make up the GH levels could vary a lot by location... so there are some in particular that are harder on fish, that others ( iron for example, verses Magnesium or Calcium) are there test strips that test those specific hardness elements that are hard on fish???
 
Some of this may be old news, but some members reading the thread may not have the same level of experience, so within reason I'll try to be detailed but concise.

GH is general or total hardness, and when it comes to this hobby that is primarily if not exclusively the measure of dissolved calcium and magnesium in the water. Most of us use municipal water, so there are strict controls on many substances like iron, copper, etc. But none on calcium and magnesium. Well water (private) is obviously different.

Water in its pure form does not exist in nature (except as condensed water in clouds, but that is not on the earth's surface); it is a powerful solvent, meaning a substance that easily dissolves other substances to create a solution. As rain falls, it picks up many gasses and particulate matter, and it continues to do this as it passes through the ground. Natural water values therefore vary with respect to hardness and pH because the water acquires specific properties from the landscape. Water flowing over or through rock will assimilate minerals from the rock, becoming what we term “hard” water. Water flowing through soils that contain organic matter will be “soft” because the organics bind with and thus remove minerals while creating acids that enter the water. The pH is largely the result of the hardness as well as the amount of carbon dioxide dissolved in the water.

As each freshwater fish species has evolved over thousands of years, their physiology has adjusted to the water values that occur in their respective habitat. We refer to these values as water parameters, and they include general and carbonate hardness, pH and temperature; each of these has an impact on fish. While many fish species appear to be somewhat adaptable, their physiology can be negatively affected if the parameters are outside the fish’s natural preference. They do not adapt as some unreliable sources will tell you, or if the species does "adapt" there are limits and other factors. Providing suitable water parameters in the aquarium is therefore an important aspect of providing an environment that is less stressful—and this directly relates to healthier fish.

Fish are directly impacted by GH [and TDS, total dissolved solids, which include GH but much more, and is outside the scope of your question]; their growth, the transfer of nutrients and waste products through cell membranes, spawning (sperm transfer, egg fertility or hatching), and the proper functioning of internal organs such as the kidneys can all be affected. Very generally (there are always exceptions), fish that have evolved in hard water must have calcium especially in the water they live in, in order for their metabolism and physiology to function well. Fish that occur in soft water do not need this, and any dissolved calcium in their water will be filtered out by the kidneys as a toxin, and here is where trouble occurs...the kidneys over time become blocked and the fish dies. The level of GH, the species, and the duration factor in. A study carried out in Germany found that the lifespan of cardinal tetras was directly related to the level of calcium (GH). The higher the GH, the shorter the life.

Of the four parameters, GH is the most important, followed perhaps by temperature (this drive the fish's metabolism) and then pH. KH is last. Again, this is very general, but it is a good guide. The GH, KH and pH are very closely connected, and the GH and KH will impact the pH. Which is why it is pointless and extremely dangerous to attempt adjusting the pH without including the GH and KH. i won't get into this here.

You mention water softeners...depending how they "soften," they can be more dangerous than a high GH. Cited verbatim from Dr. Neale Monks:

“Domestic water softeners do not produce soft water in the sense that aquarists mean. What domestic water softeners do is remove the temporary hardness (such as carbonates) that potentially furs up pipes and heaters by replacing it with permanent hardness (such as chlorides) that does not. While you can pass this softened water through a reverse-osmosis filter to remove the permanent hardness as well, until you have done so, you shouldn't consider the softened water as being suitable for soft water fish.​
In fact, aquarists are divided on whether the resulting softened water is safe for keeping fish at all. The odd balance of minerals in softened water is not typical of any of the environments from which tropical fish are collected. While the chloride levels are much higher than those soft water fish are adapted to, the levels of carbonate hardness are too low for the health of hard water fishes like Rift Valley cichlids, goldfish, and livebearers. So the safe approach is not to use it in any aquarium, and instead draw water from the unsoftened drinking water source in the kitchen.”​

The above is largely taken from an article I wrote some years ago for another site, but it is now on AbbeysDad's blog, it may give you more detail.
 
Yeah, what he said ☝🏻👀
 
Some of this may be old news, but some members reading the thread may not have the same level of experience, so within reason I'll try to be detailed but concise.

GH is general or total hardness, and when it comes to this hobby that is primarily if not exclusively the measure of dissolved calcium and magnesium in the water. Most of us use municipal water, so there are strict controls on many substances like iron, copper, etc. But none on calcium and magnesium. Well water (private) is obviously different.

Water in its pure form does not exist in nature (except as condensed water in clouds, but that is not on the earth's surface); it is a powerful solvent, meaning a substance that easily dissolves other substances to create a solution. As rain falls, it picks up many gasses and particulate matter, and it continues to do this as it passes through the ground. Natural water values therefore vary with respect to hardness and pH because the water acquires specific properties from the landscape. Water flowing over or through rock will assimilate minerals from the rock, becoming what we term “hard” water. Water flowing through soils that contain organic matter will be “soft” because the organics bind with and thus remove minerals while creating acids that enter the water. The pH is largely the result of the hardness as well as the amount of carbon dioxide dissolved in the water.

As each freshwater fish species has evolved over thousands of years, their physiology has adjusted to the water values that occur in their respective habitat. We refer to these values as water parameters, and they include general and carbonate hardness, pH and temperature; each of these has an impact on fish. While many fish species appear to be somewhat adaptable, their physiology can be negatively affected if the parameters are outside the fish’s natural preference. They do not adapt as some unreliable sources will tell you, or if the species does "adapt" there are limits and other factors. Providing suitable water parameters in the aquarium is therefore an important aspect of providing an environment that is less stressful—and this directly relates to healthier fish.

Fish are directly impacted by GH [and TDS, total dissolved solids, which include GH but much more, and is outside the scope of your question]; their growth, the transfer of nutrients and waste products through cell membranes, spawning (sperm transfer, egg fertility or hatching), and the proper functioning of internal organs such as the kidneys can all be affected. Very generally (there are always exceptions), fish that have evolved in hard water must have calcium especially in the water they live in, in order for their metabolism and physiology to function well. Fish that occur in soft water do not need this, and any dissolved calcium in their water will be filtered out by the kidneys as a toxin, and here is where trouble occurs...the kidneys over time become blocked and the fish dies. The level of GH, the species, and the duration factor in. A study carried out in Germany found that the lifespan of cardinal tetras was directly related to the level of calcium (GH). The higher the GH, the shorter the life.

Of the four parameters, GH is the most important, followed perhaps by temperature (this drive the fish's metabolism) and then pH. KH is last. Again, this is very general, but it is a good guide. The GH, KH and pH are very closely connected, and the GH and KH will impact the pH. Which is why it is pointless and extremely dangerous to attempt adjusting the pH without including the GH and KH. i won't get into this here.

You mention water softeners...depending how they "soften," they can be more dangerous than a high GH. Cited verbatim from Dr. Neale Monks:

“Domestic water softeners do not produce soft water in the sense that aquarists mean. What domestic water softeners do is remove the temporary hardness (such as carbonates) that potentially furs up pipes and heaters by replacing it with permanent hardness (such as chlorides) that does not. While you can pass this softened water through a reverse-osmosis filter to remove the permanent hardness as well, until you have done so, you shouldn't consider the softened water as being suitable for soft water fish.​
In fact, aquarists are divided on whether the resulting softened water is safe for keeping fish at all. The odd balance of minerals in softened water is not typical of any of the environments from which tropical fish are collected. While the chloride levels are much higher than those soft water fish are adapted to, the levels of carbonate hardness are too low for the health of hard water fishes like Rift Valley cichlids, goldfish, and livebearers. So the safe approach is not to use it in any aquarium, and instead draw water from the unsoftened drinking water source in the kitchen.”​

The above is largely taken from an article I wrote some years ago for another site, but it is now on AbbeysDad's blog, it may give you more detail.
Yeah, what he said ☝🏻👀
So GH is typically taken as calcium, even though minerals like iron are included… I get it, the differences between county well water and city water… calcium is the more dangerous mineral???

Softeners run the full gambit, between functional, and non functional, just like RO units… ours is a low salt use softener, but the iron is high enough here, it requires frequent service, so it’s effectiveness is variable… but its not supposed to add salt to our water… was thinking that was to clean the “green sand” ( forget the chemical that actually does the filtering) but that doesn’t mean it doesn’t leave residual chlorides…

So recommend use of an RO behind a softener, before aquarium use, probably with an added nutrient solution added to the RO water???

Sorry, doing this from my cell, so numerous fat finger corrections
 
So GH is typically taken as calcium, even though minerals like iron are included…
No the GH tees twill only detect Calcium and Magnesium. It will not detect iron or other elements in the water. The GH test will detect Calcium ?magnesium sulfate (CaSO4 MgSo4), chlorides (CaCL2, MgCL2) and carbonate (CaCO3, MgCO3). These compounds don't effect PH.

The KH test specifically tests for carbonates (CaCO3, MgCO3) and Sodium and potassium bicarbonate (NaHCO3, KHCO3), Note the KH test detects sodium and potassium carbonates as well as Calcium and Magnesium carbonate. These have very different affects on PH. Calcium and magnesium carbonate will push the PH up to about 7 but no higher. Sodium and potassium biCarbonatesCan push the PH up above 9. So ideally for an aquarium you want calcium and magnesium carbonate. You don't want sodium or potassium carbonates.

The most common water softeners are loaded with sodium chloride and create a reaction in which all the calcium and magnesium is removed and replaced with Sodium and bicarbonate. These systems also push the PH up. Fish need potassium AND sodium to stay healthy Water with only sodium or only potassium can kill fish. Fish also need calcium and magnesium for good health. The high carbonate levels also make it harder to plants to absorb the trace nutrients they need. Also Plants also need calcium, magnesium, and potassium. I would not recommend using softened water in an aquarium.

RO water has no minerals in it For bet results use hard unsoftened water in the aquarium. If necessary mix in som RO water to reduce the GH to a level the fish like. Some fish prefer hard water while others like soft water.
 
No the GH tees twill only detect Calcium and Magnesium. It will not detect iron or other elements in the water. The GH test will detect Calcium ?magnesium sulfate (CaSO4 MgSo4), chlorides (CaCL2, MgCL2) and carbonate (CaCO3, MgCO3). These compounds don't effect PH.

The KH test specifically tests for carbonates (CaCO3, MgCO3) and Sodium and potassium bicarbonate (NaHCO3, KHCO3), Note the KH test detects sodium and potassium carbonates as well as Calcium and Magnesium carbonate. These have very different affects on PH. Calcium and magnesium carbonate will push the PH up to about 7 but no higher. Sodium and potassium biCarbonatesCan push the PH up above 9. So ideally for an aquarium you want calcium and magnesium carbonate. You don't want sodium or potassium carbonates.

The most common water softeners are loaded with sodium chloride and create a reaction in which all the calcium and magnesium is removed and replaced with Sodium and bicarbonate. These systems also push the PH up. Fish need potassium AND sodium to stay healthy Water with only sodium or only potassium can kill fish. Fish also need calcium and magnesium for good health. The high carbonate levels also make it harder to plants to absorb the trace nutrients they need. Also Plants also need calcium, magnesium, and potassium. I would not recommend using softened water in an aquarium.

RO water has no minerals in it For bet results use hard unsoftened water in the aquarium. If necessary mix in som RO water to reduce the GH to a level the fish like. Some fish prefer hard water while others like soft water.
We’ll. All this said… without actually testing, my fish are generally doing good, but if I were to add an RO filter to my dedicated fill lines for the tanks, ( because that is soft water ) I should add a remineral solution to the RO water… ( I see several available specifically listed for use with RO water )???
 
My younger son used to work as an analyst at a water testing company. He told me that hardness - GH - is a measure of bivalent metal ions, of which calcium and magnesium form the bulk. Other metals such as copper are included but in much smaller amounts. Sodium is not included as that is monovalent; neither is aluminium as that is trivalent. Iron can be bivalent (ferrous) or trivalent (ferric).
GH does not measure just the amount of calcium; it measures all divalent metal ions and expresses the amount as though it was all calcium carbonate (mg/l CaCO3, or ppm), or all calcium (mg/l Ca, a unit used by many UK water companies) or even all calcium oxide (mg/l CaO - I've seen that unit in places)
He also said that what we call KH, they call alkalinity because of the method used to measure it. It's the amount of a specific acid at a specific concentration needed to drop pH to a specific level (I think he said pH 4.5, but my memory isn't what it used to be)
 
We’ll. All this said… without actually testing, my fish are generally doing good, but if I were to add an RO filter to my dedicated fill lines for the tanks, ( because that is soft water ) I should add a remineral solution to the RO water… ( I see several available specifically listed for use with RO water )???

In order to decide this question, you need to know the GH, KH and pH of your well water. You need to know what else is in it (iron was mentioned, this is a heavy metal that can kill anything living depending upon the level). And you need to know what fish species you intend keeping.

Each fish species as I mentioned in my earlier post have specific preferences when it comes to GH, pH and temperature. Once you know your water data you will know which fish will thrive without any "adjusting," which is not as easy as it sounds. I have done it.

If your well water is not usable due to what is in it--and again, do not use water from a softener as others and I have explained--then RO is advisable. Pure RO with no remineralization is fine for almost all soft and very soft water species. I maintained such fish for years without issue, as have others. What the fish do not need should not be added.
 

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