Can the mods sticky these links in the emergency section?

[Colin_T]

I would like the following 3 links made into stickies in the emergency section so I don't do my nut at the next person asking for help after they have already added heaps of chemicals and drugs to their tank.

The first link is on what to do if your fish get sick, which is recommended reading for all new fish keepers or anyone with a fish health issue.

The second link is a continuation from the first link and tells you how to identify and treat internal problems that cause fish to do a stringy white poop.

The third link is about mis-using anti-biotics and something everyone around the world should read, regardless of it they keep fish. Anti-biotics are causing drug resistant bacteria that are getting into everything and it needs to stop now.

If people read these 3 threads, it will answer most of their fish health issues and hopefully stop me going off the deep end and freaking out at the next person who says they have used this and that and this and more of that and some of this, when their fish simply has excess mucous caused by poor water quality.

What to do if your fish gets sick

If your fish ever looks sick or unwell, then the following steps might help. Test the Water and Clean the Tank. Test the water quality for ammonia, nitrite, nitrate and pH and write the results down in numbers. Check it for general hardness (GH) and carbonate hardness (KH) too if you can, but...

www.fishforums.net

What to do if your fish has Stringy White Poop.

Fish do a stringy white poop for several reasons. 1) Internal Bacterial Infections causes the fish to stop eating, swell up like a balloon, breath heavily at the surface or near a filter outlet, do stringy white poop, and die within 24-48 hours of showing these symptoms. This cannot normally be...

www.fishforums.net

Do not use anti-biotics unless you know what the problem is.

This thread is going to be harsh and a lot of people are not going to like what I have to say. But it needs to be said because anyone who uses anti-biotics when they don't know what they are treating, is contributing to the death and extinction of all animals on this planet, and that includes...

www.fishforums.net

 

[Barry Tetra]

Very useful information, especially with the “anti-biotic” one!

@dascrow @Fishmanic

 

[Fishmanic]

Stickied...DONE

 

[Barry Tetra]

Stickied...DONE

Woah!....I thought it would take longer

 

[FishGuest5123]

I disagree on the antibiotic one to an extent. Colin and I are of different beliefs on the subject and most people know it. There are many times that antibiotics are necessary and I have witnessed several members lose fish by the “wait and see” approach. I have trouble believing that so many fish just have “excess mucous”. I mean no offense but I have only dealt with one occasion of excess mucous before joining this forum. I feel it is a “catch all” and used too frequently here. Antibiotic resistance has much more involved than just treating some fish in a tank. Without antibiotics, I would have witnessed many more patients die than I did in my healthcare career. Yes, there are some nasty bugs out there that have become resistant to certain antibiotics. It did not occur over night but over decades. Stop and think about what nasty bugs we would be dealing with without the use of antibiotics. I shudder to think. Treating our fish and not misusing the products will not harm animals or human life. It’s rediculous and go against everything I have witnessed in the medical field. If you choose not to treat with antibiotics, that’s fine but don’t make a blanket statement that new hobbyist will take to heart and cause fish loss. I agree that fresh water is the first line of defense but we must, at times, move on to the big dogs. . -edited-

 

[CassCats]

And certain fish are salt sensitive (corydoras, plecos, etc) and should not have salt used on them, which is constantly pressured for people to use on everything for everything.

Yes don't over use medications of any kind, but that also counts for salt ? some strains of parasites are now salt tolerant now too (ich strains, skin flukes, etc)

I also disagree with the antibiotic post to a degree. Has wisdom to it, but its also very preachy and opinionated.
Not to mention you flipped on a new member unnecessarily just to shove this down their throat. I do not like how it is broadcasted, not in the first thread you flipped out on and not in the sticky thread either. While I dont 100% agree with the entire information, I think if worded better it would make a better sticky. The way it is now just "screams" at the people reading it and can put off a lot of new people, wasting your cautions if the ranting prior scares them off. (They may read the thread before getting to know you, which may scare them away without really helping them)

 

[Barry Tetra]

And certain fish are salt sensitive (corydoras, plecos, etc) and should not have salt used on them, which is constantly pressured for people to use on everything for everything.

Agree with Nc and should’ve mentioned tannin treatment and stuff for scaleless fishes.

But antibiotic resistance bacteria are quite dangerous for aquaculture kind especially in Thailand where they just add antibiotics every week and the fish ended up dying of the resistance bact.

 

[FishGuest5123]

And certain fish are salt sensitive (corydoras, plecos, etc) and should not have salt used on them, which is constantly pressured for people to use on everything for everything.

Yes don't over use medications of any kind, but that also counts for salt ? some strains of parasites are now salt tolerant now too (ich strains, skin flukes, etc)

I also disagree with the antibiotic post to a degree. Has wisdom to it, but its also very preachy and opinionated.
Not to mention you flipped on a new member unnecessarily just to shove this down their throat. I do not like how it is broadcasted, not in the first thread you flipped out on and not in the sticky thread either. While I dont 100% agree with the entire information, I think if worded better it would make a better sticky. The way it is now just "screams" at the people reading it and can put off a lot of new people, wasting your cautions if the ranting prior scares them off. (They may read the thread before getting to know you, which may scare them away without really helping them)

The sticky shouldn’t have been added without discussion. Period!

 

[FishGuest5123]

Agree with Nc and should’ve mentioned tannin treatment and stuff for scaleless fishes.

But antibiotic resistance bacteria are quite dangerous for aquaculture kind especially in Thailand where they just add antibiotics every week and the fish ended up dying of the resistance bact.

That’s an entirely different story and an excellent example of when antibiotics are misused. Big difference in that and treating fish ccassionally for an illness with antibiotics in a closed tank.

 

[Colin_T]

For Deanasue and NCaquatics,
The drug resistant bacteria in our tanks aren't going to be from just one person using anti-biotics right now. The problem is the fish coming from Asian fish farms have been getting treated with anti-biotics for the last 40 years and the bacteria are developing and have developed a resistance to them. We have all seen it here on this forum where people are using Furan 2 (an anti-biotic) for a bacterial infection and it doesn't work. Even Deanasue recommends using Furan 2 with another anti-biotic because it no longer works as well as it used to. Why, Furan and Furan 2 have been mis-used in Asian fish farms for the last 40 years. And when people are putting anti-biotics in an aquarium and they aren't sure what the problem is, that just makes the problem worse because they are exposing fish and numerous different types of bacteria to anti-biotics when they don't need to be. In addition to that, most people use anti-biotics in a tank with gravel, a dirty filter and a nice biofilm on the glass and ornaments. All these things stop the anti-biotics working as effectively as they should.

If people have to use anti-biotics on fish, the tank should be clean and free of gravel, biofilm and dirty filter media. Then the anti-biotic gets to kill bacteria on and in the fish and is not wasted on biofilm and dirty gravel.

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Excess mucous is extremely common on fish and we see cases here all the time. Bacterial infections don't cause excess mucous. Poor water quality, chemicals and external protozoan parasites cause it. None of which get treated with anti-biotics.

People have to look at what symptoms their fish have and find out what the problem is before adding anything, especially anti-biotics. Occasionally anti-biotics might be needed, but most of the time they aren't and we should be using other treatments first before we start adding anti-biotics.

The final problem with anti-biotics is they don't always break down straight away. People add anti-biotics to their tank and then do a water change. The dirty water containing anti-biotics is sometimes poured down the drain where it gets diluted and mixed with sewer water. The bacteria in the sewer water are then exposed to low levels of anti-biotic, which can make them resistant to it. These bacteria might end up in rivers or the ocean where they grow and live happily ever after.

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As for salt, all freshwater fishes, including Discus, Corydoras, suckermouth catfish, eels, loaches, tetras and every other fish can tolerate salt for a short period of time. Even the salamanderfish from the south-west of Western Australia can tolerate salt for a few weeks, and it is a prehistoric fish from before the dinosaurs and naturally occurs in rain water with a GH of 0ppm and a pH between 3.0 & 5.0.
(1 to 2 heaped tablespoons of rock salt for every 20 litres of tank water, for 2 weeks) is all that is needed for most issues.

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Not to mention you flipped on a new member unnecessarily just to shove this down their throat. I do not like how it is broadcasted, not in the first thread you flipped out on and not in the sticky thread either.

I didn't flip out on a new member just to shove this down their throat. This has been building up for a long time with more and more people coming on here saying they have added anti-biotics and everything else under the sun.

When I freaked out at the new member for adding anti-biotics, I had basically had enough of people mis-using anti-biotics. I did my nut at them and then had to write the thread on "do not use anti-biotics..." so I wouldn't do my nut at anyone else. I then took a break and walked away from the computer for a few hours. When I came back I went to answer a new thread about diseases and it had anti-biotics in it too. That was too much so I told them to look at the anti-biotic thread and walked away again.

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If anti-biotics are genuinely needed (eg: for Columnaris), then that is fine. But when people are just adding things to their tanks and aren't sure of what the problem is, anti-biotics are not the answer and should not be used.

 

[FishGuest5123]

I am not talking about just throwing antibiotics in every time you see a fin nip. There are diseases that respond well to antibiotics and in those instances, they should be used. Novice hobbyist should inquire about antibiotics before using. Experienced ones know when to use them. As far as emptying them into a sewer, they would be so diluted that they would not cause harm or be effective any longer. Bottom line, using antibiotics in a closed tank by an experienced hobbyist is acceptable. A blanket statement stating they are dangerous and shouldn’t be used is just wrong and should not have been stickied @Fishmanic. Permanent information on our forum should be discussed first. We now have inaccurate I formation being used. Or shall I say skewed information.

 

[CassCats]

I dont have a problem with your warning against overusing them.

Its more how it comes across. How it is read. Thats all. Just some revisions to come off less judgmental and opinionated versus actual fact, you know?

And I'm also pointing out that nothing should be overused, including salt as pathogens are becoming salt tolerant as well.
Antifungals and such too are over used.
So perhaps, the sticky can be less targeted at one type of medication and just be a caution to not overuse everything and to save them as a final resort?

Now, in my experience, some stuff that you would have written off as "not bacterial" didn't resolve with cautious starter measures (clean water, salt, tannins, etc) and didn't resolve until antibiotics were used. Ive learned from those experiences when the point was that the fish needs medication or else its likely not going to recover in time with cautionary first step measures.

And I tried salt with cories before, they freaked right the heck out as soon as the dissolved salt water was added to their tank at even half dose. Another member on here has lost a lot of their cories because they were using salt longterm. Salt should not be thrown willy-nilly at them and, like medicines, should only be used as a last resort. They freaked out less with a metro-prazi combo than they did with the salt (was treating for flukes).


So perhaps maybe a less aggressive post explaining the steps one should take before using medications and at what point they should intervene in the issue, would be a better idea?

I do think the post put up is a blanket statement and I know you can put up something much better quality and informative, without seeming like its biased. You have a lot of knowledge and information, I will never disagree with that, but I disagree with the tone of the post.

 

[itiwhetu]

No body should use antibiotics unless an accurate diagnosis has been done and there is no alternative. I would go as far as to say they should be banned for general aquarium use and only available through a vet.

 

[mcordelia]

What I am hearing people say is that they agree with the message, but not necessarily how it got typed. I wonder if there are any volunteers who might want to type up fresh posts with the same information (but without the opinions necessarily, just sticking to facts) that we can sticky in place of the current ones moving forward if that might be a better approach? Until then, I think it's reasonable to broadcast the message in its current form, but maybe some copy-editing may be warranted so as to not alienate new members seeking advice for the first time? I'm unfortunately not volunteering at the moment due to time constraints, so this might just fall into a "should" bucket, but as mentioned, I think overall having them there is better than not.

 

[CassCats]

No body should use antibiotics unless an accurate diagnosis has been done and there is no alternative. I would go as far as to say they should be banned for general aquarium use and only available through a vet.

Yes because this is working so well for Canada.

Not.

Vets half the time here won't even bother with fish, so you are left screwed.