Can someone help me identify this disease?

[DutchMuch]

No, permanently. Charcoal removes many things (to many in this case) that plants and fish need to thrive.

 

[ElizabethFrancine]

No, permanently. Charcoal removes many things (to many in this case) that plants and fish need to thrive.

Ok. I didn't know that. Thank you for all your help.


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[Tyler_Fishman]

The cardinal looks like it has drops by the belly, and what appears to be scales poking out.

 

[DutchMuch]

No problem. If you have anymore questions contact me or the entire forum!
but in a couple days or a week or so, update us on how it is going. Water quality like I said is the heart of all issues, weather its yours or the place you receive fish from.

 

[Byron]

salt is worthless in whatever treatment

I'm sorry, but this is not true. Depending upon the disease, and the fish species, this is often the most safe treatment.

The photo of the cardinal shows ich, or white spot. It is impossible for me to tell from the photo if something else may be present, but it is not uncommon to have fungal issues with parasitic disease, as the parasites are burrowing into the cells. I cannot see anything on the panda cories in the later photo. But if you say there are spots on other fish, this would seem to be ich.

Heat speeds up the cycle, so increasing temperature is useful. Some advocate heat raised to 90F/33C may kill ich over a week or two. But not all fish can withstand such high temperatures, and your panda cories are one; cardinals would be OK. But don't net out the cories, as they may be carrying this (as may every fish in the tank) and you might as well treat the tank effectively.

The safest and most effective treatment is plain salt, sodium chloride, such as Aquarium Salt or even sea salt provided there are no additives. Not table salt, and not marine salt. I had a particularly persistent parasitic issue (not sure what it actually was, possibly ich or velvet) that lasted over a year and a half, on and off, and I sought help from Dr. Neale Monks. The treatment I will outline is from him.

Raise the temperature to 30C/86F. You can do this partly with a partial water change (a WC should be done at the start of this or any treatment, generally) plus turning up the heater(s). Salt can be added at the level of 2 grams per liter. A level teaspoon is approximately 6 grams, so this treats 3 liters of tank water. Add this gradually, over half a day. Dissolve the salt first in hot water (dissolves faster in hot water) in a jar and pour it in; do not add salt crystals as these can burn fish. Take into account the displacement by substrate and decor, being careful not to overdose. Monitor the fishes' response and if you see obvious signs of stress, do a water change to reduce the salt. I've never seen this, but it can happen if you overdose accidentally.

Maintain the heat for two weeks. Do a partial water change after one week, and add sufficient salt only for the replacement water. At the end of two weeks, turn the heaters down to normal and let the tank water cool naturally. The salt will eventually be removed through normal weekly water changes.

I have used this on very sensitive wild caught fish, characins (including cardinals), cories, loaches, Farlowella and Whiptails. I have never lost a fish. I don't know what other fish you have besides cardinals and panda cories, but this treatment, according to Dr. Monks, is safe, and that was my experience. Salt is far safer than most of the ich remedies, many of which contain copper which is much more devastating to cories and characins.

Ich first attacks fish in the gills, so we don't see it; flashing may be the only evidence, but flashing can be a symptom of several issues, so don't jump to conclusions. But here there are external ich spots. Once you deal with the ich, there may be no need to go further. I am not certain of anything else besides the ich, and treatments are stressful on fish so you don't want to overdo things.

Byron.

 

[DutchMuch]

I do stand up to the fact that salt does not help in Any way, Can you provide an example of where it has cured a disease solely relying on itself? Salt (sodium chloride/ table salt) does in fact have a direct connection to osmotic pressure. To explain this, picture a fish in an aquarium. The internal density of fish is greater then that of the water (fish contain salt in form of sodium and chloride ions transported by the blood). Incoming water tries to dilute their bodies to equal both sides, the inside of the fish and the water outside.

 

[Byron]

I do stand up to the fact that salt does not help in Any way, Can you provide an example of where it has cured a disease solely relying on itself? Salt (sodium chloride/ table salt) does in fact have a direct connection to osmotic pressure. To explain this, picture a fish in an aquarium. The internal density of fish is greater then that of the water (fish contain salt in form of sodium and chloride ions transported by the blood). Incoming water tries to dilute their bodies to equal both sides, the inside of the fish and the water outside.

I just did provide an example...salt will deal with ich and velvet. Salt in the water kills the free swimming stage of both parasites. Dr. Monks says it kills other similar parasitic issues too.

Copper in the water also kills the free swimming parasites, but copper is much more harmful to sensitive fish than salt.

 

[DutchMuch]

Copper is also toxic to inverts. And can stain an aquarium, stain meaning it will stay there for a long period of time, in the silicone. In further detail, (also sorry I did not see your example previously) how does it deal with it? what method? I am aware that is pretty deep into it.
I am currently researching on how it helps kill ich and velvet so far I came up with this:
"
Treatment
Only the free-living tomonts and theronts are subject to medication. These are killed either by using suitable poisons, such as copper, or by creating conditions of high temperature and salinity that they cannot endure.

Because each generation multiplies the number of ich parasites in the aquarium hundreds of times, it is important to treat promptly. Even if you can see just one or two ich parasites, a potentially lethal epidemic may be just days away."
Then I found some more "stuff" I thought I may add from other websites:
"How just one extra ounce of salt can kill the fish and an ounce less can become ineffective"

"Salt does not evaporate, it can only be removed by water changes and plants will not survive higher concentrations. The reason is similar to what we can observe with fish that cannot survive higher salt concentrations. Once again osmosis is the reason. Freshwater naturally moves from an environment with a low salt concentration, (inside the plant or animal) to one with a higher salt concentration (the water). As a consequence the diversity of plants and animals decrease. This is because they cannot keep the water and salt content of their bodies at the right concentrations for them to survive this environment. The lethal point for plants is reached at about 1000 mg/l of salt. One teaspoon of salt equals approx. 5500 mg."

"
Salt does interfere with the osmotic regulation of fish and plants. It should be left alone; nature regulated that part itself, by creating freshwater, brackish and saltwater fish.

The low beneficial amount of salt, mentioned above will not have any benefits in addition to water conditioners and/or stress coats already used for water treatments."
You also stated that "salt is safer than many other ich remedies" why not make it even more safer and do it an all natural way? by maintaining or improving water quality (of which this is mostly caused by) and other reasons, I previously stated. (while cranking heat to desired amount, as said corys/w/cardinals most likely 78 or 79)

 

[Byron]

The "other stuff from other websites" sounds like an article I wrote on salt. It is posted on the forum I was on at the time, but Bob Fenner and Neale Monks saw it and asked if they could post it on Wet Web Media, and I agreed. [Here is the link: http://www.wetwebmedia.com/SaltArtHosking.htm ] But, that article (if it is mine) dealt with salt used regularly as some sort of magic prevention--as the article points out, this is not advisable and certainly not effective anyway. But using salt as a treatment for a specific parasite, and for limited time, is effective but not as detrimental to fish and invertebrates as some other remedies, as you noted.

As for the cause of ich, it is stress, always. Now, stress occurs from many things...inappropriate water parameters, poor water quality, wrong environment, wrong mix of species, insufficient numbers of shoaling fish...almost anything. Eliminating stress as much as possible is the best preventive, since stress is directly responsible for 95% of all fish disease issues. The pathogen (as in the case of ich) may be present, but stress is what triggers the outbreak. It is now believed that ich is always present in most of our aquaria. It is only when the fish are stressed that it is evident. Just one parasite entering the gills of one fish can keep it present.

Heat at 78/79 is not going to do much for ich. Getting it up to 90F is said to possibly kill ich, but Neale said this was a bit risky, and the salt was more effective for most fish.

 

[DutchMuch]

Im still on my side of disagreement. Btw nice article .
For me its an all natural way (sounds hippie but true), plus so many downsides of salt. Especially in a planted tank, we have already discussed most if not all the pros and cons of salt and details of it/them. Water quality for me as you also said, is the answer to all if not most of our problems in regards to sick or ill fish an aquaria.

 

[ElizabethFrancine]

Im still on my side of disagreement. Btw nice article .
For me its an all natural way (sounds hippie but true), plus so many downsides of salt. Especially in a planted tank, we have already discussed most if not all the pros and cons of salt and details of it/them. Water quality for me as you also said, is the answer to all if not most of our problems in regards to sick or ill fish an aquaria.

Ok. So assuming that the Ich and/or whatever the Cory has (it looks fuzzy, as do the "salt" dots on the tetras) came in with the tetras a few weeks ago what can I do? If the tetras and cories can't take the heat, I think I'm going to have to bite the bullet and start some half doses of lifeguard or something.


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[NickAu]

I change the filter every 3-4 months.

This is counter productive, You should just clean it in used tank water. What you are doing is throwing away a cycled filter.

Salt is useful in treating things like ICH.

 

[ElizabethFrancine]

This is counter productive, You should just clean it in used tank water. What you are doing is throwing away a cycled filter.

Salt is useful in treating things like ICH.

I put the old filter in behind the new one for two weeks. I rinse it in tank water about once a month. They get disgusting from the plant matter and really need to be changed. Over two years I have never had a problem with my water levels doing it this way.


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[ElizabethFrancine]

This is counter productive, You should just clean it in used tank water. What you are doing is throwing away a cycled filter.

Salt is useful in treating things like ICH.

I guess my concern is that it isn't Ich, and I'm not sure treating with salt is with the risk to my cories if I'm not sure it's going to work.


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[DutchMuch]

Like I previously said, and its my only offering of advice really for this issue. Is do two fifty percent WC's a week, then after this epidemic is over with just do fifty percent so on so forth.