Can I keep Cory with small gravel?

[Byron]

OK, this may be my last post in this thread, but there is something here that needs clarification. Fact is fact, period. The earth is spherical; no one can "prove" it is not, it is simply a case of refusing to accept the factual evidence. And this brings us to an important point...it is not disagreement, it is refusing factual evidence.

I refuse to allow people to say "we disagree" when they reject data and evidence. We are not disagreeing. You are rejecting well-documented evidence which is the only habitat evidence. Those are not the same thing.

As for Ian Fuller's "ban," that is his prerogative because he owns the site and he is fed up with continually having to respond to nonsense. I don't blame him. I knew a marine biologist some years back who left a forum for much the same reason. When one is banging one's head against a brick wall, eventually one tires of doing so. And Ian's view is not a theory, it is fact. It doesn't matter that anyone refuses to acknowledge it, it is still fact. There is no "evidence" that Corydorandinae species live over gravel that has no sand mixed in. None. Refuse to accept it if you like, but recognize you are refusing fact, not holding some different opinion.

I am sorry, but you clearly do not understand fish biology and physiology; the fact that cories are seen over gravel in aquaria does not in any way "prove" they are OK. Fish like all animals have a strong will to survive and reproduce; they will attempt to make the best of a bad situation, but that dos not mean the inappropriate situation is not taking a toll on the fish.

 

[Heather7465]

Remember our Corydoras are confined to a box. In the wild, they get to freely swim in a large body of water. Deciding what substrate they want to rest on, eat on, and lay eggs on.
Let's all check back in ten years to see who's corydoras lived longer team sand vs team gravel

 

[coriesinhawaii]

OK, this may be my last post in this thread, but there is something here that needs clarification. Fact is fact, period. The earth is spherical; no one can "prove" it is not, it is simply a case of refusing to accept the factual evidence. And this brings us to an important point...it is not disagreement, it is refusing factual evidence.

I refuse to allow people to say "we disagree" when they reject data and evidence. We are not disagreeing. You are rejecting well-documented evidence which is the only habitat evidence. Those are not the same thing.

As for Ian Fuller's "ban," that is his prerogative because he owns the site and he is fed up with continually having to respond to nonsense. I don't blame him. I knew a marine biologist some years back who left a forum for much the same reason. When one is banging one's head against a brick wall, eventually one tires of doing so. And Ian's view is not a theory, it is fact. It doesn't matter that anyone refuses to acknowledge it, it is still fact. There is no "evidence" that Corydorandinae species live over gravel that has no sand mixed in. None. Refuse to accept it if you like, but recognize you are refusing fact, not holding some different opinion.

I am sorry, but you clearly do not understand fish biology and physiology; the fact that cories are seen over gravel in aquaria does not in any way "prove" they are OK. Fish like all animals have a strong will to survive and reproduce; they will attempt to make the best of a bad situation, but that dos not mean the inappropriate situation is not taking a toll on the fish.

Ok so data and evidence was presented for keeping them on sand, but there wasn't any indicating that keeping them on smooth gravel is actually harmful. So there's nothing there to reject. An interpretation of that data was made that sand is the only option and assumptions were also made that sand is necessary for them to digest food and because there is no natural habitat in the world without sand (debatable) it is the only non-cruel way to keep them in captivity. None of that is well-documented objective evidence that there is a problem with gravel. It is riddled with subjective opinions.

 

[itiwhetu]

OK, this may be my last post in this thread, but there is something here that needs clarification. Fact is fact, period. The earth is spherical; no one can "prove" it is not, it is simply a case of refusing to accept the factual evidence. And this brings us to an important point...it is not disagreement, it is refusing factual evidence.

I refuse to allow people to say "we disagree" when they reject data and evidence. We are not disagreeing. You are rejecting well-documented evidence which is the only habitat evidence. Those are not the same thing.

As for Ian Fuller's "ban," that is his prerogative because he owns the site and he is fed up with continually having to respond to nonsense. I don't blame him. I knew a marine biologist some years back who left a forum for much the same reason. When one is banging one's head against a brick wall, eventually one tires of doing so. And Ian's view is not a theory, it is fact. It doesn't matter that anyone refuses to acknowledge it, it is still fact. There is no "evidence" that Corydorandinae species live over gravel that has no sand mixed in. None. Refuse to accept it if you like, but recognize you are refusing fact, not holding some different opinion.

I am sorry, but you clearly do not understand fish biology and physiology; the fact that cories are seen over gravel in aquaria does not in any way "prove" they are OK. Fish like all animals have a strong will to survive and reproduce; they will attempt to make the best of a bad situation, but that dos not mean the inappropriate situation is not taking a toll on the fish.

Who says Ian's theory is fact. Ian obviously and who else. I think the sand in a Corydoras stomach is an annoyance rather than anything else. And I think putting Corydoras on a pure sand base just really frustrates them rather than makes them happy. And I say that is a fact.

 

[DoubleDutch]

People also 'prove' that Earth is flat despite overwhelming evidence on the contrary.

Generally speaking: when people ban evidence that their theory is wrong (like Ian): it's because they defend their belief to the grave; not because they are right.

It's common thing in scientific world: People defend their debunked theories and go to their grave fighting against what challenges their beliefs. Because they lose their status as foremost expert on something and become someone who was wrong for long time. A lot of people can't handle it.

I think we have the same case here.
People telling people that do it; that it can't be done and ignoring evidence that it can be done to maintain their held belief.

I think it is a.completely different matter in this case. This is a case of personal experiences and knowledge by people who have been catching the fish themselves (been on location), kept and bred a lot of those species etc.
I am not a sand fethisist, don't want to call it cruel to keep them on gravel and have kept several species of Corys on gravel, fine sand and middle grained sand. My own experiences with the latest are best and so I offer them only sand nowadays. In all the years I've never noticed the (need to) filterfeeding mentioned nor did I notice any problem eating or finding (tiny) food on / in the substrate mentioned. In the hundreds / thousands of threads I have read on several forums around the world I have noticed one thing : bigger grained gravel + too low waterflow means trouble for Corys. In my opinion this must have to do with pollution / bacterial growth etc... (an assumption not scienticic proof)

Of course they'll encounter "gravel" in the wild, and boulders, pebbles, leafs, rock, etc etc...
But I think that the thing that is forgotten here is that the circumstances in the wild are completely different than in a tank.

Instead of for instance 500 litre per hours watermovement in a tank in nature often thousands of.litres come along in the same period. Left over foods, bacterial en microlife in the substrate will be completely different
Also in the wild they can choose their favourite spots to hang out.

I don't understand why this discussion is made as personal as it is right now. Proof this and proof that. I don't think it is usefull to argue with the experiences the experts have.
I have once be in a discussion with Ian Fuller.
To be honest : I don't like the way some people think their experiences are a law, but I respect him as he is and the enormous experience he has.

Corys simply love sand. In my opinion they can be kept on specific fine gravel (where is the borderline between) as well (grainsize is more important than being smooth etc.).

Please be kind to each other

 

[Byron]

Who says Ian's theory is fact. Ian obviously and who else. I think the sand in a Corydoras stomach is an annoyance rather than anything else. And I think putting Corydoras on a pure sand base just really frustrates them rather than makes them happy. And I say that is a fact.

Your opinion is not "fact." Fact is what is established with evidence, and there is not one shred of evidence of sand harming cories as you allege. And the "fact" that all species live over a sand (or the other mentioned materials) rather blows this opinion out of the water.

Aside from that, you have missed the issue...the "fact" that has been "disagreed" with is the substrate that exists in all cory habitats that have to date been explored by anyone. This is not someone's "theory," it is proven fact.

No one can possibly say that a fish is "happy" or "frustrated," or any similar emotion, because we cannot talk to the fish to find out. And I know what is going to come next, so I'll answer it...as already stated, the fact that fish appear to us to be "OK" is because they make the most of whatever we force them to accept, due to the will to survive. That doesn't mean they are "happy," nor does it mean they are as healthy as they could or should be were it not for "x" or whatever.

 

[Spyro]

OK, this may be my last post in this thread, but there is something here that needs clarification. Fact is fact, period. The earth is spherical; no one can "prove" it is not, it is simply a case of refusing to accept the factual evidence. And this brings us to an important point...it is not disagreement, it is refusing factual evidence.

I refuse to allow people to say "we disagree" when they reject data and evidence. We are not disagreeing. You are rejecting well-documented evidence which is the only habitat evidence. Those are not the same thing.

As for Ian Fuller's "ban," that is his prerogative because he owns the site and he is fed up with continually having to respond to nonsense. I don't blame him. I knew a marine biologist some years back who left a forum for much the same reason. When one is banging one's head against a brick wall, eventually one tires of doing so. And Ian's view is not a theory, it is fact. It doesn't matter that anyone refuses to acknowledge it, it is still fact. There is no "evidence" that Corydorandinae species live over gravel that has no sand mixed in. None. Refuse to accept it if you like, but recognize you are refusing fact, not holding some different opinion.

I am sorry, but you clearly do not understand fish biology and physiology; the fact that cories are seen over gravel in aquaria does not in any way "prove" they are OK. Fish like all animals have a strong will to survive and reproduce; they will attempt to make the best of a bad situation, but that dos not mean the inappropriate situation is not taking a toll on the fish.

Fact is that you are refusing evidence that corydoras can and do live on substrate other than sand. (and plentiful evidence).
Nobody is refusing that they can and do live on sand substrate.

You posit that their barbells get damaged - plenty of people say that they kept and do keep corries on smooth small gravel with no damage.

You posit that require sand because the sand was found in their stomach. But there is no evidence as to purpose of that sand:
It could be accidentally swallowed with food and be harmful instead of necessity. Bit like kidney stones in human from minerals in water.
It could be food processing: Maybe they require it to process the food in nature like live bugs with hard shell. Since they are feed with processed food in tanks = sand has no purpose or benefit at all anymore. Bit like chickens need sand/gravel to crush hard seeds and get minerals for egg shells. But if you feed them with processed food they have no sand/gravel requirement anymore.
Corydoras prefer sand: neither you or Ian is cory whisperer and has actually asked cory do you mind being kept on small gravel. Even if cory given choice of sand and small gravel hangs out on sand it could still be just the case of instinct rather then benefit in tank.

As far as Ian is concerned:
History is full of experts that defended their status to the death in the face of new evidence to the contrary and reject it.

I'll leave you with this:
every superstition, harmful technology, harmful substance use was once knowledge and fact.
Down the years, experts defended to the grave: use of radioactive paint on children faces, led content in fuel is completely harmless, etc, etc........

 

[Spyro]

Remember our Corydoras are confined to a box. In the wild, they get to freely swim in a large body of water. Deciding what substrate they want to rest on, eat on, and lay eggs on.
Let's all check back in ten years to see who's corydoras lived longer team sand vs team gravel

That would actually be a good fact for argument. But there isn't any actual evidence to support it other then assertion that it must be true.

 

[coriesinhawaii]

Your opinion is not "fact." Fact is what is established with evidence, and there is not one shred of evidence of sand harming cories as you allege. And the "fact" that all species live over a sand (or the other mentioned materials) rather blows this opinion out of the water.

Aside from that, you have missed the issue...the "fact" that has been "disagreed" with is the substrate that exists in all cory habitats that have to date been explored by anyone. This is not someone's "theory," it is proven fact.

No one can possibly say that a fish is "happy" or "frustrated," or any similar emotion, because we cannot talk to the fish to find out. And I know what is going to come next, so I'll answer it...as already stated, the fact that fish appear to us to be "OK" is because they make the most of whatever we force them to accept, due to the will to survive. That doesn't mean they are "happy," nor does it mean they are as healthy as they could or should be were it not for "x" or whatever.

Actually I can tell if my fish are feeling well much the same way people can tell if their dogs or cats are feeling good or bad. They can’t talk to their dogs or cats to ask them but they can tell just the same. Why is it such a stretch that I would be able to do so for my fish? If I feel a lively, content, playful well being coming from them I perceive that to be happiness. I realize everyone might not be able to pick up on stuff like that but just because you can’t doesn’t mean no one can.

And I’m not saying it’s objective evidence or anything.

 

[Cydeth]

I'm not going to jump into the argument, and I don't have a big list of names to drop to back up any and all comments I make... so the following is just from my experience.

I've kept many varieties in the past and continue to this day, I find that they do well on many surfaces as long as they are smooth and clean. I've kept them on very smooth gravel, and in fact my longest lived cory lived to over 10 years on that surface and had no health issues as a result.

Currently I mostly keep them on a sand surface with a grain size listed as 0.6mm to 1.2mm, according the bag at least. They seem to be doing great on that too, although my choice to keep them on that was purely aesthetically motivated. If they live a long life on that surface as well, great.

I've also seen cory kept by a friend of mine on a surface that was a mix of sand and coir, and while I didn't keep a close eye on them I never saw any injuries or distress brought on by that choice.

I don't really care what they live on in the wild, it's next to impossible to accurately replicate it. I care if my fish are healthy, and if they are then as far as I'm concerned the substrate is correct.

 

[Spyro]

I think it is a.completely different matter in this case. This is a case of personal experiences and knowledge by people who have been catching the fish themselves (been on location), kept and bred a lot of those species etc.
I am not a sand fethisist, don't want to call it cruel to keep them on gravel and have kept several species of Corys on gravel, fine sand and middle grained sand. My own experiences with the latest are best and so I offer them only sand nowadays. In all the years I've never noticed the (need to) filterfeeding mentioned nor did I notice any problem eating or finding (tiny) food on / in the substrate mentioned. In the hundreds / thousands of threads I have read on several forums around the world I have noticed one thing : bigger grained gravel + too low waterflow means trouble for Corys. In my opinion this must have to do with pollution / bacterial growth etc... (an assumption not scienticic proof)

Of course they'll encounter "gravel" in the wild, and boulders, pebbles, leafs, rock, etc etc...
But I think that the thing that is forgotten here is that the circumstances in the wild are completely different than in a tank.

Instead of for instance 500 litre per hours watermovement in a tank in nature often thousands of.litres come along in the same period. Left over foods, bacterial en microlife in the substrate will be completely different
Also in the wild they can choose their favourite spots to hang out.

I don't understand why this discussion is made as personal as it is right now. Proof this and proof that. I don't think it is usefull to argue with the experiences the experts have.
I have once be in a discussion with Ian Fuller.
To be honest : I don't like the way some people think their experiences are a law, but I respect him as he is and the enormous experience he has.

Corys simply love sand. In my opinion they can be kept on specific fine gravel (where is the borderline between) as well (grainsize is more important than being smooth etc.).

Please be kind to each other

Well said and I agree.
I was told the same by couple of fish keepers with decades of experience (father and son), the owners of well respected fish store in the city I live in:
They kept cory on sand, smaller gravel in dozens of tanks and setups at home; and never experienced any issues with cory on gravel that they haven't experienced with cory on sand.
They said: they haven't observed or experienced any difference in behavior or health on different substrates.
They said they wouldn't recommend keeping them on Lava rock, sharp gravel, plant substrates; but more of a opinion not an experience as they never kept cory on those substrates.

I have nothing against Ian or other experts but these people are as much experts in my eyes as a person with years of cory experience and website. Or Corry from AquariumCoop.
So I do what I always do: take the conviction of some despite evidence on contrary with a grain of salt on the subject.
Especially when they start burning people on stakes or banning them from their website for presenting different evidence.

 

[Tez_20]

I have heard they prefer sand, but I have pretty small gravel
View attachment 138495
(photo taken before filling tank)

As long as your gravel is smooth and the edges then your ok but if rough then it's a no sorry as it can rip their barbels.