Can i keep a small shoal of Otoginglus in small gravel

[Country joe]

You're right, I don't know you, and you don't know me. I just took a lot of time out of my day this morning to try to help you, in a friendly and polite way, and you never once issued a thank you, to anyone, and seemed to ignore what we were telling you because you want to stock your tank within a week of setting it up, and you're cherry picking the part of the article that says otos enjoy these types of foods - once they know it's food, and that varies- some live entirely on what they find in the tank and never touch an algae wafer.




If you keep ignoring people who have taken time out of their day, for free, to try to give you good advice for a successful tank, then just try to find short cuts and argue that we're wrong, why even ask us? Just do what you want and see the results for yourself.

Wow. Wonder why I bother trying to help beginners here sometimes.

Okay I will leave it I was not saying anyone is wrong and I have taken advice, I will not be having them till I have a well established tank I do love this forum and don't wish to fall out with members who obviously know a lot more than me,

 

[AdoraBelle Dearheart]

Okay I will leave it I was not saying anyone is wrong and I have taken advice, I will not be having them till I have a well established tank I do love this forum and don't wish to fall out with members who obviously know a lot more than me,

No worries, I don't want to fall out with anyone either! Minor disagreements happen, but it's no biggie and doesn't have to be a big deal. Plus tone so hard to read via text, misunderstanding easily happen. I do wish you all the success with your tank though, and would like to see photos when you're ready to share.

ETA: It's good to question the source, I'm just another random hobbyist and not an expert in the slightest! There are people here who write articles, books, and have kept fish longer than I've been alive! But there are also older fishkeepers who are stuck in their ways and haven't kept up with advances in scientific research and study, and might be terrible fishkeepers who've been terrible for a long time, ya know? So I don't want to discourage you from questioning the source! That's a good thing, and there's a lot of sorting through what info to take and what to leave in this hobby too. Some things are a matter of science, some opinion, experiences, etc, so there are few set in stone 'rules' for how to keep an aquarium.

 

[Country joe]

No worries, I don't want to fall out with anyone either! Minor disagreements happen, but it's no biggie and doesn't have to be a big deal. Plus tone so hard to read via text, misunderstanding easily happen. I do wish you all the success with your tank though, and would like to see photos when you're ready to share.

ETA: It's good to question the source, I'm just another random hobbyist and not an expert in the slightest! There are people here who write articles, books, and have kept fish longer than I've been alive! But there are also older fishkeepers who are stuck in their ways and haven't kept up with advances in scientific research and study, and might be terrible fishkeepers who've been terrible for a long time, ya know? So I don't want to discourage you from questioning the source! That's a good thing, and there's a lot of sorting through what info to take and what to leave in this hobby too. Some things are a matter of science, some opinion, experiences, etc, so there are few set in stone 'rules' for how to keep an aquarium.

I am in your 70s so not great on the computer will have to get someone to show me how to stick photos on, tried earlier but got absolutely nowhere, I'm sure my neighbours would help me.

 

[Ichthys]

could you suggest a few herbivorous species that would be likely to have the right gut bacteria, please?

I can't with any certainty. I guess the best species would be Otos , but I don't think it matters much. For example I read a paper that found that every plec species studied had its own unique species of gut bacteria. Fry acquire them from their parents poop as soon as they start to eat. But they all do the same thing (digest cellulose) and any seem to work in any fish, as far as I understand. I could be wrong though...

 

[AdoraBelle Dearheart]

I can't with any certainty. I guess the best species would be Otos ,

Ha, true! I guess I meant more generalised, like, not that they're likely to have the specifically same gut bacteria, but ideas of some fish species that have a similar diet, but aren't otos, lol. I guess most would also be grazers though, like hillstream loaches maybe? Was wondering about perhaps nano fish of some kind, but I guess most are omni or insectivores...?

but I don't think it matters much. For example I read a paper that found that every plec species studied had its own unique species of gut bacteria. Fry acquire them from their parents poop as soon as they start to eat. But they all do the same thing (digest cellulose) and any seem to work in any fish, as far as I understand. I could be wrong though...

Makes a lot of sense, there's a similar thing with having the right kinds of gut bacteria lot of animals, and heck, even humans.

I'm just extra interested because I'm so fond of otos, planning to get more soon, and the idea that they might also be starving due to losing gut bacteria, and that may also account for the ones that seem to have reached a point of no return, even with the right food available, makes a lot of sense. Anything I can do to help boost the chances for oto survival is super important to me!

@Seisage I know you like otos and science too, any ideas?

 

[Ichthys]

I rescued a young Red Hook that was possibly the thinnest fish I'd ever seen, and added it straight into a healthy happy group of assorted dollar species, but no other Red Hooks. It immediately started eating dollar poop, and pooping green (no gut bacteria). It acquired bacteria and became a nice healthy fish. So I think in most cases any related species will work. I think any herbivorous-plec poop would probably work for Otos.

 

[Seisage]

@Seisage I know you like otos and science too, any ideas?

Hmm... I honestly don't know enough about this specific information niche to have any concrete thoughts, but I do think it's an interesting idea and I'd definitely like to know more. It's intriguing that a fish would purposefully, perhaps instinctively, eat another fish's poop. I've seen my neons try to eat each other's poop before, but they always spit it out, so it seems more like wishful thinking than any sort of purposeful action. @Ichthys 's example obviously suggests that some fish do purposefully eat poop, so I'd love to know more about what sorts of bacteria are present, if the species of fish matters (not just their general diet), and how this behavior might manifest in the wild, if it does at all.

There's quite a bit of research on fish gut microbiota, but not really anything that addresses microbiome loss and re-acquisition. Most of what I could find regarding acquisition of microbes focused on the initial acquisition in larvae/juveniles and microbes are usually obtained environmentally, it seems, with exceptions like discus and their weird mucus situation. Couldn't find anything on acquisition of microbes via feces, unfortunately...

 

[AdoraBelle Dearheart]

Hmm... I honestly don't know enough about this specific information niche to have any concrete thoughts, but I do think it's an interesting idea and I'd definitely like to know more. It's intriguing that a fish would purposefully, perhaps instinctively, eat another fish's poop. I've seen my neons try to eat each other's poop before, but they always spit it out, so it seems more like wishful thinking than any sort of purposeful action. @Ichthys 's example obviously suggests that some fish do purposefully eat poop, so I'd love to know more about what sorts of bacteria are present, if the species of fish matters (not just their general diet), and how this behavior might manifest in the wild, if it does at all.

There's quite a bit of research on fish gut microbiota, but not really anything that addresses microbiome loss and re-acquisition. Most of what I could find regarding acquisition of microbes focused on the initial acquisition in larvae/juveniles and microbes are usually obtained environmentally, it seems, with exceptions like discus and their weird mucus situation. Couldn't find anything on acquisition of microbes via feces, unfortunately...

Hmm, that's still some interesting stuff! You're right, I've seen fish eat poop before, spit it out, and assumed it was the same thing, just checking if it was food, decided it wasn't, but perhaps there is something more to it.

I guess another route we could take would be to look for what other species tend to live in the same regions as the most commonly caught and shipped oto areas. If herb or omnivores, they might also have the right kind of gut bacteria, and having some of them for an oto tank would also fit with a biome idea...!

*Starts wishfully thinking about a dream oto biome breeding project*

 

[AdoraBelle Dearheart]

microbes are usually obtained environmentally, it seems, with exceptions like discus and their weird mucus situation.

Also I'm sorry, but I was impressed with all the research and science stuff, then was caught a tad off guard and when this golden line made me laugh while sipping coffee, and I don't usually inhale coffee in the mornings! Thank you for that much needed laugh!

 

[Country joe]

My new tank has been set up for two weeks, and I'm noticing some algae, my tank is in a small bedroom away as far from the window but must be seeing a lot of light my lights come on 10 am till pm. I've started now in the morning having the blind down quite a bit to make the room darker,, I was thinking of using API Aquarium Fish Tank Anti Algae Treatment, or would I better leaving it for the future so I can have 4 of the small algae eating Catfish?, some may say move the tank but that's not a possibility.

 

[Essjay]

It is better not to ad any chemicals to a tank, but to find the cause of the algae and rectify that. It is possible that the algae is the type that nothing eats. Could you look at the photos on here and tell us which one it looks like

James' Planted Tank - Algae Guide

How long are the lights on for? Lights on for too long can case algae to grow.
Light from the window - could you create some sort of screening for the tank if you would prefer not to have the blind drawn during the day?





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Juwel tanks have 2 tubes, the ones they usually come with are a Day tube and a Nature tube. The K rating of these is 9000K and 6500 K respectively. 6500K is best for plants; 9000K is too high. If you have one each of these tubes, the best solution would be to replace the Day tube with a second Nature tube. But that costs money.......

 

[Country joe]

It is better not to ad any chemicals to a tank, but to find the cause of the algae and rectify that. It is possible that the algae is the type that nothing eats. Could you look at the photos on here and tell us which one it looks like

James' Planted Tank - Algae Guide

How long are the lights on for? Lights on for too long can case algae to grow.
Light from the window - could you create some sort of screening for the tank if you would prefer not to have the blind drawn during the day?





.
Juwel tanks have 2 tubes, the ones they usually come with are a Day tube and a Nature tube. The K rating of these is 9000K and 6500 K respectively. 6500K is best for plants; 9000K is too high. If you have one each of these tubes, the best solution would be to replace the Day tube with a second Nature tube. But that costs money.......

Not to sure but looks like Diatoms brown algae, definitely brown on the plant leaves, if replacing the tube with a nature tube how would I know which one, I suppose I could cover tank for some of the time with a blanket or something like that.

 

[Essjay]

Diatoms are common in new tanks. Ammonia + light = diatoms.

Whether it's a fishless or fish-in cycle, there is some ammonia in the water, even at very low levels. As a tank cycles and becomes mature the diatoms usually disappear. Though it's impossible to say how long it will take.