Brain Damaged Bala?

[kkjones]

So my theory is that "Betta", my bala shark, is dying...He swims around ok for the most part, but then randomly, for extended periods of time, will sit there, vertical (i.e. head is pointed down, tail is pointed up) just kind of twitching...I don't know if he does it at night or not, he seems to be fine at night, according to my husband. Anyways, we've only had the little dude for a few days and are kind of concerned, to answer some questions:

Yes it is a new tank
No we did not wait the full week to cycle it before adding fish
Yes we added "hardy" guppies, a bala, 3 neon tetras, and a pleco (probably gonna die, i know)
Yes we added more than 3 at a time, I think it was 6?
Yes other fish have died (2 tetras) and yes we have semi-aggressive Tiger Barbs (3) The guppies have been in for a day or so, one of the tiger barbs was nipping them badly so we donated it to the local fish rescue place, they accept live fish, which is cool.
The tank is like 3 days old, with water conditioner, a heater, a filter, and the whole setup complete.

So the question is...is my bala shark dying? I've heard, after i purchased him, that they can be pretty tempermental to Ph changes. Anyhoo, any advice would be appreciated. thanks all!

 

[SamUK]

your tank isnt cycled and thats why there all dieing.


do a water change ASAP and post your water stats if you have a test kit.


and cycling takes alot longer than a week!


quicker you do a water change the more chance the shark has tho.

 

[KeeperOfFishyPeace]

omigosh! you're killing your fish! you're suppose to have 1 fish or 2 small ones for 6-8 weeks for beneficial bacteria to grow. then every week after that you add a fish or two untill you have all the ones you want. the ammonia and nitrite are probably sky high! your barbs are also part of the problem, they nip like crazy and should really only be kept with themselves, plecs and a few other different species. you're best bet is to return your fish if possible and put a guppie or two in for the 6-8 weeks. not all fish are compatible with each other, keep that and the 1'' per gallon rule in mind!

 

[sjcneedshelp321]

The tank is like 3 days old

is this quote right? do you mean weeks/months?

 

[demonmagus]

it is 3 days old, that what they said.

don't be so harsh, probably never heard of cycling

 

[DiscusKeeper403]

c'mon guys, people dont come here to be flamed out and have rants posted every which way on there thread. Say it nicley and the message will come across being heard louder and clearer. It is ture that the tank should be cycled. Do you have any friends or faimly that could hold your fish for you in an already cycled tank? Balas get really big and need to be in schools so please make sure to reasearch and ask questions before you get your fish this way your fish will live and happy and healthy life.

 

[demonmagus]

sounds bad but please try and rehome/trade in all the fish. Even for free. Then you could get some mature filter media from one of the 'donors' on this site and that would be almost instant cycle.

 

[sjcneedshelp321]

im sorry i wasnt meaning to be horrible or anything, i was just making sure. guys i was just unsure. sorry if it came accross the wrong wy. sorry kkjones.

 

[ImperfectFaerie]

Lets try to keep our advice on the constructive side- they need help, not a spanking. And the 1" of fish per gallon rule is really not a rule, it only applies to small fish IF it applies at all. Definately, lets get a water change going. Do you have a test kit? Please post your stats. How old is the tank really? The best thing would be to rehome a few of your fish (esp the bala, the tiger barbs are probably driving him crazy) and do constant water changes until your stats even out. Everyone learns the hard way about one thing or another, we'll try to help you out as much as we can. Good luck!

Edit- Is your bala changing color at all- ie going whiteish or anything like that?

 

[kkjones]

Hey guys, yes we are new at the whole fish thingie. And we have had the tank for only 4 DAYS. The little book we got with the kit said that we could add fish after 24-48 hours. What do we need to test?? And what levels do you guys mean when you say post your stats? How would we fix these levels with other the cycling the tank. And no we really don't have anyone to give them to while we cycle the tank.... . The Bala just seems to be doing the vertical floating thingie by the heater. And the tank reads between 80-82F, but after he floats there for a while he just seems to swim away and thru the tank just fine. The tiger barbs don't seem to be bothering any of the other fish after we removed the big one. They just seem to be chasing each other in a endless game of tag. The Guppies seem more then okay with no problems for the Bala or the Tiger Barbs. The do kinda sleep weird and it freaks my husband out...they just seem to float around. Yes we are new so please any help that we can get would be great please don't get mad with us

 

[ImperfectFaerie]

Well you came to the right place, welcome to the forum! First off it would do you a LOT of good to invest in a liquid test kit from your LFS- we use the AP master test and are very happy with that. It might *seem* more expensive than test strips, BUT test strips are very inaccurate, go bad easily, and liquid tests will do a LOT more tests for you. If you can't do that at the moment, if you could take a sample of your tank water to the LFS and get a reading on- pH, Ammonia, NitrIte, NitrAte, gH (hardness). You might want to get your own tap water tested as well, it's helpful to know what you are working with to start.

Then I'd suggest doing a search on here on the topic of Cycling, it will help you learn what you are watching for when you test and all that. You are going to need to do almost constant partial water changes to keep ammonia down and the like. Good luck, hopefully they'll make it- this next month or two will be very trying for your fishies.

 

[Tommy Gunnz]

Wow, just have to add my two cents into this thread because when I was new, I got slammed hard at one forum and even a year and a half later, I dont ever go back! Good job with getting it all settled out Imperfect.

KK, what you may be guessing now is that there are a ton and a half of places that you can get information on how to get your tank ready for fish. Unfortunately, the people who are trying to make money off of you are, in general, not the best people to ask. This is simply because they are trying to make a living and selling you fish that are going to die or get sick means that you have just become a repeat customer without knowing it. I realize it must be hard to feed kids by selling some fish at a couple dollars a peice, but it is definately not ethical or right. I always wondered why the fish stores can get away with all this misleading advertising, but somehow they do.

I would say that your bala is suffering from ammonia poisoning and you REALLY should think about cutting your monetary losses and give them back to a fish store or the place you said will rescue fish. It will be better for your mind anyways because once you get your tank up and running the right way, you will most likely fall in love with fish.

Testing is important as well and I second Imperfects push for you to get a liquid test kit (the kind with test tubes). They are more expensive at first glance, but you can test A LOT more times than you can with the little strips before they go bad, which they do quickly.

So, ammonia, nitrate, and nitrites will be the major tests you want to purchase asap. You would be well advised to get a Ph testing kit as well since Ph can limit the types of fish you will want to keep in your tank (some needing higher Ph and some needing lower)

Speaking of stocking your tank....later on when it is good to go, of course...there are alot of things to consider. First, what size is your tank in gallons and/or dimensions in inches/feet? I can tell you right now that most people do not have a tank big enough for even one Bala shark since they get real big, and they need to be in groups. Tiger barbs are not so much aggressive as they are 'fin nippers', so if your guppies are of the fancy type, the tigers are going to tear them up. Your pleco is most likely a common variety and will get really really big and you most likely dont know this, but you dont really have to have one in your tank at all (some fish are much better at algea control), unless you simply like them as many people do, including myself.

So, DO NOT get discouraged please. Your tank is going to be full of absolutely fine stocking options and you are going to have a lot of fun and enjoyment out of it. It is a great investment and in my opinion, better than cable TV most of the time! This forum is the best place to ask questions and get info from because no one will lie to you, and if someone does, the rest are going to eat them for supper! Everyone here is in this for the hobby and not from the money, so your chances are better here than at a fish store!

Trust me, you are going to LOVE keeping fish. It is almost as addicting as tattoos and cigarettes!

 

[kkjones]

Test levels thus far: and yep we got one of them fancy pants liquid tester things and read the directions even!

Ph: level is an 8, which is "high-ish but not deadly" to balas, which prefer 6-7.8

Ammonia: yeah, oh crap, San Diego water got ammonia added to the water within the last year. Our tapwater was a .25-.50 ish range, closer to .25. Our ammonia in the TANK itself was between .5 and 1, although we believe it's closer to 1, like a .8 or so. From what I understand, ANY ammonia is like, uh oh, we gonna DIE!!! I checked online about that ammonia and they said that adding lots of fish can make it spike...not sure about that. but we added like, 7 the first time, then 1 died, then added 6 (like 2 days later? 1 day?) and another died (same species, died before we picked up the 6), and then donated 3 total to a local "fishery" or whatever the PC term is. So maybe adding/subtracting fish may do that?? any thoughts would be appreciated. So the "book" which came with the test kit is saying to do a 25% water change, but since our water is already .25-.50 ammonia, what should I do? and just added a little driftwood (Malaysian, let it soak a few days and rinse repeat as necessary) could that add ammonia or be affected by ammonia?

Nitrites: Just checked the Nitrites at 10:12 PM PST : and Woot Woot the nitrate level is less than the lowest level, and it's 0!!! YAY!!!!!!!

Nitrate: test seems a little long winded, but the result so far is like, way below 40, more like 5 or 10, so far that is...2.5 pretty much, right between 0 and 5, so yay for yellow !

Hardness: well it's common knowledge that the water is hard, supposedly the driftwood might help the hardness of the water to calm down a little.


Thus far the driftwood seems popular for the fish to hide behind, the sucker to suck, and the bala to hide in, so that's good, i hope, and I'd like help on how to get rid of ammonia poisoning, will distilled water hurt the fish even more than they already are? i mean, atleast it doesn't have any ammonia in it...as well the test kit book mentioned Ammolock to use to keep down ammonia and I've read around the forums that some people have used it for a Fish cycling. But I never heard how it ended out just that they used it never heard of a end result any help would be greatful thanks!!!

 

[Tommy Gunnz]

KK,

In my opinions and experiences, I would first say no to the distilled water since it is basically lifeless water and there is no real point to buying water that is distilled, just to add a bunch of bacteria and chemicals to it anyways when it goes into your tank. Just use your tap water and treat it with a dechlorinizer (dont know how to spell that, it is late) before you put it in with the fish. Ph levels are usually not fatal at all, but if the Ph is way off the range that your fish are naturally made for, you could be stressing them out or not have the ability to keep them as healthy as you would like.

So, it sounds like you still need to read the details about cycling a tank. I will try to make it some what short and simple so you can better understand what is happening.

Ammonia: Ammonia is created by the breakdown of wastes, whether that waste be from the fish or organic matter that is decaying like food or plants that have died off. While it may be in your tap water to begin with (which, by the way, I have never heard of a city adding ammonia to a water supply before and cannot think of a reason why anyone would, so make sure that you do not mean that they are adding chlorine to the water, just to double check) ammonia will be the first chemical created in your fish tank's water. Most people would not put fish in the tank for quite a while, so they would use a couple of methods, one of which would be to feed the tank as if there were fish in it (but there isnt), so that the food starts to decay and create ammonia for bacteria to feed on. Ammonia is fatal to fish (which is why I dont think a city would add it to the water since it most likely isnt good for humans either) and when a tank is properly cycled, there should be no trace of ammonia in your water. This is because the bacteria have established themselves well and are eating it up before it gets to a high level. You cannot really just get rid of your ammonia levels right now, but you can reduce them a lot by doing big and frequent water changes (which creates another problem later on....more to come on that subject). A last note on ammonia...you can purchase ammonia 'pillows' that will help to remove the ammonia from your tank, which will help keep your fish alive, however, this also creates the same problem as doing big water changes.

Nitrites: When the benificial bacteria eat the ammonia in your tank, it in turn creates nitrites. What you are going to notice is that in a couple days or weeks is the levels of ammonia drop significantly, but your nitrite levels will go sky rocketing upwards. Nitrites are also fatal to fish in high amounts and when your tank is fully cycled, like ammonia, you will see no trace of nitrites.

Nitrates: Nitrates are the end stage for the decaying wastes and while harmful or deadly in high amounts, you will most likely always see a very small level of nitrates in your tank. Fish can deal with this chemical with much more tolerance than the other two. In the final stages of your tank's cycle, you will see large numbers of nitrates, which will eventually drop down to a constant, more acceptable level.

PLEASE NOTE: you can find yourself in a situation of having a well established fish tank that is properly cycled regaining high levels of any one of these chemicals. This is due to not keeping up with maintenace (water changes) and/or over feeding your fish so there is a lot of wastes at the bottom of your tank rotting away.

Now, the predicament you are in is that you will need to do big and frequent water changes to keep down the levels of these potentially fatal chemicals by taking them out with the water. In your case right now, you could do as much as 50 to 75 percent water changes and help your sick fish out a bunch. The problem arises however, when you are taking out all of these chemical, the benificial bateria you need in the tank does not have sufficient food supplies as well as losing a lot of the bacteria in the water you are taking out. This can and will lead to your tank never having the chance to cycle, meaning that for as long as you are keeping fish in there, you will have to do big water changes almost every other day in order to keep the water safe for fish.

I might be misunderstanding you here, but I wanted to also point out that all water is not hard water, even in its most natural setting. The 'hardness' part of water comes as traces of metals and other chemicals dissolve into the water (this is the reason copper pipes are generally used in your home, they are not quick to become part of your water. A water softener simply uses salt to replace most of these metals in your water so it tastes better and is more healthy for you (water can be filled with lead, which is why lead pipes are not banned from use as water lines). You could and maybe should get a water hardness test kit to see just how hard your water truly is. Your city water is so processed, that I would generally like to believe that it is softer than the water before it found its way into the processing plant. There are many tricks to raising the hardness of water or lowering it. The best test to see how hard your water is in your home is to buy a bottle of water from a store, mix in liquid soap and shake away. Of course you will see a lot of bubbles and foam. Now to the same with your tap water. Hard water will ensure that the bubbles are limited and you will not have the same effect as you did with the bottled water.

You can also 'buffer' your Ph with chemicals to adjust it to the level your fish are going to enjoy the most. I see them all the time at the fish stores around my area, including the big ones like petco or petsmart.

Finally, it is never wise to 'shock' your tank by adding copious amounts of fish all at one time. This adds so much bio load that the bacteria cannot keep up and you will see what is known as a mini-cycle.

I also am still wondering what size tank you have or are talking about in this situation. This is going to make a HUGE difference in what fish you can keep in the tank. If you are overstocked right now, this could also be the reasoning for your fish dying and/or being sick.

 

[ImperfectFaerie]

Very good info Tommy! I even learned a bit Good work I do say!