Bolivian Rams Fighting Over Territory.

[l_l_l]

Hello!
I am very new to the Cichlid world.
I just purchased a trio of Bolivian Rams and was hopping to get 2 females and one male.
 
A week later, I think I might have three males.
 
Here is what's happening.
 
One of my ram (let's name him Ram A) has established his territory in the middle of the tank. The two others each have the sides. Let's name the left territory one, RAM B, and the right territory one, Ram C.
 
Ram A hangs in the middle of the tank, then suddenly, Ram B comes over, wants a piece of what RAM A is having.
Ram B doesn't like anyone in his territory so he'll flare at him and will go face to face with him. Sometimes, they will jaw lock, until one leaves.
 Ram C also wants a piece of what Ram A is having, and same thing happens, they flare at each other, then sometimes will jaw lock.
 
Ram B and C have been spotted chasing each other, and flaring, but I'm not sure they have done any jaw locking...
 
Based on those observations, do you think I might have ended up with 3 males?
 
Cheers!

 

[LyraGuppi]

If you could get a pic of the rams that would be helpful for sexing.

 

[l_l_l]

They are still very young, I'm not sure if it would be of any help.. But here it is...
 
Please note that in this photo, they are only 3 days in the tank.
 

 

 

[Byron]

This is tricky to determine from those photos.  I remember your other thread, and I suggested that the "problem" fish in that thread (which was acting oddly) might be female.  The fish on the left in the last photo here similarly appears female to me, but I'm not going by much.  Any chance of a video of the interaction?
 
I have observed the interaction you describe between a male and female in my own tank.  They spawned four times before the male had enough of her and killed her.  Fish will sometimes display aggression toward members of their own species including simple chasing, ramming, and lip-locks; while usually non-harmful, targeted fish may be weakened to the point of death. This can apply to mates especially if they did not bond on their own.  If the tank is spacious with good decor (this is fine from the photos) they may be fine.  The trouble is when a male decides he wants to be rid of any rivals (male or female), and severe damage can occur to the subordinate fish.  They will then literally avoid the dominant male, hiding in corners or under plants or wood, fins clamped, even refusing to come out to eat.  The fish should be separated if it goes this far.  But in the present photos, all three seem to be tolerating each other.
 
Observations made in the habitat of this species suggest that this species lives in solitude (individual fish alone) apart from reproduction periods (Linke & Staeck, 1994).  So when we place them together in an aquarium, we are most likely creating an artificial environment and the individual fish obviously have to adjust somehow to this.  This is one reason this species is so good as a single fish in a community tank.  But they can also decide to tolerate each other.  A video might make this a bit clearer.
 
[SIZE=8.5pt]Byron.[/SIZE]

 

[l_l_l]

This is tricky to determine from those photos.  I remember your other thread, and I suggested that the "problem" fish in that thread (which was acting oddly) might be female.  The fish on the left in the last photo here similarly appears female to me, but I'm not going by much.  Any chance of a video of the interaction?
 
I have observed the interaction you describe between a male and female in my own tank.  They spawned four times before the male had enough of her and killed her.  Fish will sometimes display aggression toward members of their own species including simple chasing, ramming, and lip-locks; while usually non-harmful, targeted fish may be weakened to the point of death. This can apply to mates especially if they did not bond on their own.  If the tank is spacious with good decor (this is fine from the photos) they may be fine.  The trouble is when a male decides he wants to be rid of any rivals (male or female), and severe damage can occur to the subordinate fish.  They will then literally avoid the dominant male, hiding in corners or under plants or wood, fins clamped, even refusing to come out to eat.  The fish should be separated if it goes this far.  But in the present photos, all three seem to be tolerating each other.
 
Observations made in the habitat of this species suggest that this species lives in solitude (individual fish alone) apart from reproduction periods (Linke & Staeck, 1994).  So when we place them together in an aquarium, we are most likely creating an artificial environment and the individual fish obviously have to adjust somehow to this.  This is one reason this species is so good as a single fish in a community tank.  But they can also decide to tolerate each other.  A video might make this a bit clearer.
 
[SIZE=8.5pt]Byron.[/SIZE]

Thanks Byron!
 
I'll try to capture this on video, hopefully I am able to catch them.
I'll watch closely for behavior, if they avoid each other I'll separate them.

 

[Byron]

I'll watch closely for behavior, if they avoid each other I'll separate them.
 

 
Just want to make sure you are on the right track.  "Avoid" is not necessarily trouble.  It is how they avoid.  One of those things one learns over the years, and difficult to put into words.  The behaviour of the subordinate fish is telling, i.e., how it "avoids" the dominant male.  I'll see better in the video, but from the photos I see no trouble.

 

[l_l_l]

 

I'll watch closely for behavior, if they avoid each other I'll separate them.
 

 
Just want to make sure you are on the right track.  "Avoid" is not necessarily trouble.  It is how they avoid.  One of those things one learns over the years, and difficult to put into words.  The behaviour of the subordinate fish is telling, i.e., how it "avoids" the dominant male.  I'll see better in the video, but from the photos I see no trouble.
 

Photos are before they settled into their own territories. So they can be seen hanging together. That's actually how they acted before having each their own territory.
 
From what I can understand, they defenitely do not avoid each other right now, they are confronting.
I have a small video where you can see a bit of what's happening..
I'll try to shoot something that shows them going at it fully.
 
http/www.youtube.com/watch?v=F0fpStkzD9A

 

[noobgamers]

it is possible that they are immature and so are not interested or capable of sex and so see each other as fish out to steal heir territory disputes just like any territorial disputes or is that the female(s) aren't receptive and so the male sees her as another enemy trying to steal her territory and what is the tank floor space

 

[Byron]

That's OK, there's nothing that would concern me there, quite the opposite in fact.  They seem very well settled.  The two "on camera" the most are behaving like males.
 
Byron.

 

[l_l_l]

Thank you.
 
They indeed behave like what I've read about males.
I'm still incapable of sexing them by the vent as it's not showing, all looks the same to me.
I guess I'll just wait and see until they develop into mature males/females and if I indeed have all males will return the extra males to the store.

 

[l_l_l]

I called the LFS where I bought them from and he's going to check tomorrow if he's got females.. If he has some, he'll trade them to me

 

[l_l_l]

I took a bunch of pictures tonight and I think I have two females and one male. I'll post them tomorrow when I figure out where my USB cable is.

 

[l_l_l]

This is the ram on the left, he looks distorted because of my bowfront

You can see his vent looks like a male one, I dont have other angles because he was too skittish

This is the ram in the middle, with the weird pectoral fins. You can see his vent, looks like a female's tube.

And finally the ram that is almost always hidden. We can see she has a egg tube like vent..

What are your guys thoughts?

 

[Byron]

I wouldn't want to guess from the photos.
 
If you decide that fish are going back to the store, the best way to select rams is to observe the fish in the tank for some time, say 20+ minutes.  Provided they are not severely stressed from the store tank (this can occur), they should display fairly noticeable behaviours with respect to their interaction.  The males will be separated, and if they have a preferred female, she will be allowed to remain close.  In my experience, male/female interaction is generally non-existent in the store tank, it is the males that you watch for, unless the tank is sparsely populated and contains some plants/wood that settle the fish so they react more normally.  I have seen a male with 2-4 females close by, and he will repeatedly charge other males who approach, but ignore the females.  If you can, select a male and a female that he accepts.  You could try two females with the male.
 
Males will not accept any female.  I had that experience when I introduced a nice female in with my male; they interacted oddly from the start, and notwithstanding they spawned four times in succession, he then killed her.  There is no guarantee of permanent bonding, but if they seem bonded now they likely will tolerate one another down the road.

 

[l_l_l]

Thanks !
 
I finally think I'll wait and see how all of this develops.
From what I have gathered, it looks like they should be females.
I think I might have 3 of them!
If that is the case, I don't mind as I have a friend who has two males and needs one female..
A quick switch might be good.